Thursday, June 09, 2005

Latter Day Sinners

Hugh Nibley


Somebody said from the Bible he'd quote.
There was dust on the man in the long black coat.
- Bob Dylan


While cramming on Joseph Smith the other night, I determined I need to read Fawn Brodie's 60-year old biography, No Man Knows My History. Brodie was a Mormon, and she undertook her work with the blessing of the prophets and apostles of the Latter Day Saints. The vaults of church history were open to her. Regrettably for the church, Brodie became convinced that it was founded on a lie, and threatened her with excommunication if she published her findings. She did, and she was.

In the Amazon reviews, I found that many of the Mormon faithful awarding the book a single star were recommending instead a pamphlet entitled No Ma'am, That's Not History by renowned LDS scholar Hugh Nibley. Now, I'm no consumer of Mormon scholarship, but that name I knew. I'd read about his recent death, at 94, but there was something else. I couldn't remember what.

And really, I should have known: in Leaving the Saints, his 42-year-old daughter, Martha Nibley Beck, writes that Nibley was a "pedophile who abused her as a child while chanting ancient Egyptian prayers." In February, The New York Times reported that Beck's first memory of abuse is of "being stretched out and legs spread like a frog on a dissecting table. 'My father is doing something that feels as though it's ripping me in two,' while he repeated words like "Father Abraham," "The Book of the Dead," "the prophet Joseph," "Amut the Destroyer," "the prophet Joseph Smith," and "Abrahamic sacrifice."

One day, in her late 20s, Beck writes, her brain "seemed to erupt like a volcano" and she suddenly had a memory of her father abusing her in her bed when she was 5. She subsequently remembered other abuse that she said lasted until she was 8. In an interview, she said these memories were the reason for her unhappiness and mental problems.

...

"The peculiar details of my memories had at first made me doubt myself -- they were so weird -- but in the end, reinforced my conviction that I hadn't unconsciously made something up," she writes in her book.


Nibley denied the accusations before his death, and his seven other children issued a statement, posted on the web page hughnibleydefense.com, claiming their sister had invented the crimes, the memories of which returned to her 15 years before, in order to "sell books." (Or again, the rebuttal "No Ma'am, that's not history.") The page links to the False Memory Foundation "for more information."

In his confidential July 19, 1990 memorandum to the Strengthening Church Members Committee re: Ritualistic Child Abuse, LDS Bishop Glenn L Pace provided a different kind of information:

I have met with sixty victims. That number could be twice or three times as many if I did not discipline myself to only one meeting per week. I have not wanted my involvement with this issue to become a handicap in fulfilling my assigned responsibilities. On the other hand, I felt someone needed to pay the price to obtain an intellectual and spiritual conviction as to the seriousness of this problem within the Church.

Of the sixty victims with whom I have met, fifty-three are female and seven are male. Eight are children. The abuse occurred in the following places: Utah (37), Idaho (3), California (4), Mexico (2), and other places (14). Fifty-three victims are currently living in the State of Utah. All sixty individuals are members of the Church. Forty-five victims allege witnessing and/or participating in human sacrifice. The majority were abused by relatives, often their parents. All have developed psychological problems and most have been diagnosed as having multiple personality disorder or some other form of dissociative disorder.

...

The memories seem to come in layers. For example, the first memory might be of incest; then they remember robes and candles; next they realize that their father or mother or both were present when they were being abused. Another layer will be the memory of seeing other people hurt and even killed. Then they remember having seen babies killed. Another layer is realizing that they participated in the sacrifices. One of the most painful memories may be that they even sacrificed their own baby. With each layer of memory comes another set of problems with which they must deal.

Some have said that the witnesses to this type of treatment cannot be trusted because of the victim's unstable condition and because practically all of them have some kind of dissociative disorder; in fact, the stories are so bizarre as to raise serious credibility questions. The irony is that one of the objectives of the occult is to create multiple personalities within the children in order to keep the "secrets." They live in society without society having any idea that something is wrong since the children and teenagers don't even realize there is another life occurring in darkness and in secret. However, when sixty witnesses testify to the same type of torture and murder, it becomes impossible for me, personally, not to believe them.

41 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

What this article describes is well documented. This type of abuse is satanic ritual abuse (SRA). Just lookup MK-ULTRA for more information.

9:34 a.m.  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous, welcome to RI!

geeez man, this rabbit hole kinda sucks, it really just doesnt end.....

the Mormon bee... Brigham Youngs Merovingian descent?

and then this guy:

Ezra Taft Benson
http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/daily/history/people/Benson_EOM.htm

doest get any more Skull & Bones than Taft....

one
human?

10:39 a.m.  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

um....er..yeah.
suffice to say, I'm left wondering if mpd isn't very comfortably ensconced within the bell curve.
and, jeff, I know it's been said before, and it'll be said again, but, thanks.
you dangle it before our eyes, may we not just blink and move on.

12:57 p.m.  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The Amazon readers' reviews (Jeff's link above) are worth reading in themselves. The obviously Mormon "denunciations" are splenetic, vituperative, and lacking both good grammar and good sense. She's well out of that seething nest of serpents, I'd say.

1:18 p.m.  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

As a former Mormon I am certainly glad and thankful to be "outta there". But in all honesty, it would be a gross misconception to think all Mormon people are 'serpents'. True, they (I) are (was) deluded and deceived by lies, but the majority of them are just fairly regular people, who happen to think they are blessed to have 'the Restored Gospel'. Most of them would be horrified and crushed to know any of all this reality, if they could bring themselves to accept it. Most of them just don't know all this dirt, and they really think their faith and belief system is the 'most correct' and beautiful, and the 'fullness, of God's truth for man. Many are just sincere people who are trying to do what they believe is right. They are also often deeply anguished at their own failure to live up to all the high ideals and requirements for achieving thier salvation and ultimate exaltation. For a large proportion, they are really not all that caught up in the doctrines and never go to the temples. It is just another church to them and they are not real 'believers' anyway. The faithful have a nickname for them, calling them "jack-Mormons".
Nevertheless, lies, and especially deep dark lies are seeds of evil, and ultimately lead to problems great and small. Observe the case with Nibley. If you want to understand how the Devil appears as an 'angel of light', the Mormon Church provides a perfect example.

2:45 p.m.  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

My brother long ago converted to Mormonism. I am intrigued by the relationship between this pro-
State faith and the intelligence "community"--it is said they dominate the inner circles and upper ranks. Also, it is said that the Mormon Church has little truck with Israel, in that they believe Zion is the New World; doesn't seem that the Middle East would have too much of a hold on them.

On another subject: I am curious if anyone out there has ever heard of IQ tests and "gifted programs" being used to identify and track children with extraordinary talents--I've come up blank.

4:07 p.m.  
Blogger S.M. Elliott said...

"No Man Knows My History" has a few historical bloopers and misquotations in it, but it's the best book on Joseph Smith I've come across so far. Quite fascinating. (I research literary fraud and scams - Smith is a goldmine, as is the LDS church in general!).

5:25 p.m.  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Although this is somewhat off track, it might be well for people to listen to the program on NPR's This American Life titled Godless America. There are some excellent observations about religion in general in the USA, and a particularly articulate and penetrating analysis of the Bible by Julia Sweeney. a fairly well-known comic actress. It can give one some interesting perspectives about a lot of the lunacy about Christianity in general.

6:12 p.m.  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You might also be interested to know that "This American Life" ran a hit piece on Ritual Abuse-Torture survivors. They trotted out the old false memory arguments and painted survivors as "crazies" who had the audacity to hold onto their incredible "beliefs" about what happened to them.

7:20 p.m.  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

echo that on the alleged Mormon affiliation within the (one of?) core factions within the cia - having said that my reading on the cia is now old - i dont know how fast there is a real generational turnover (who but an insider would?) - but i did get a very strong impression that 'intelligence' is a family business.....

7:36 p.m.  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This is purely speculative, but I wonder whether if perhaps some of the suicide bombers in Iraq and elsewhere in the Middle East could be the victims of torture, and physical and sexual abuse, at Abu Ghraib or other US prisons, which apparently have CIA operative involvement. Could these prisons possibly be breaking these prisoners psychologically and programming them to go out and detonate themselves? It seems a logical possibility that should be investigated. Anybody else have thoughts or read or heard anything to support such a speculation?

8:14 p.m.  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Why do they call it satanic ritual abuse when it's FREAKIN CHRISTIANS DOING THE DIDDLING?

9:03 p.m.  
Blogger messianicdruid said...

If you want to study Mormon history you must read the works of Jerald and Sandra Tanner. They had access to early Mormon documents and simply reprinted them, and were excommunicated.

10:56 p.m.  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hugh Nibley was a scholar possessing a voluminous comprehension of ancient studies and philosophies. He is said to have been conversant in eleven languages and writings, including German, Hebrew and ancient Egyptian and hieroglyphics. He could speak or write extemporaneously on almost any topic of antiquity. He used this knowledge extensively as a Mormon apologist, and was an especially ardent fan of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. One of his several books, "Approaching Zion", was written to deplore the the drifting of Mormonism toward secularism and away from its fundamental roots established by the Prophet Joseph and his successor Brigham.
He came from a wealthy family of commerce, but chose scholarship over business for his life's work.
During WWII he worked for military intelligence, and was stationed in England.
Didn't Crowley work in British military intelligence during WWII?
I wonder if they ever made acquaintance?

11:23 p.m.  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

...Abu Ghraib or other US prisons, which apparently have CIA operative involvement. Could these prisons possibly be breaking these prisoners psychologically and programming them to go out and detonate themselves?

I think the Takfir Wal Hijra (takfiri) cult should be more thoroughly investigated, as well as the supposed Al Qaeda infiltration of the Army's Muslim chaplain program, which was a story for awhile but then disappeared.

12:43 a.m.  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

here's a link-

What Muslim Jihad Group Tried to Assassinate Osama Bin Laden?

the Takfir Wal Hijra

1:49 a.m.  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"You know, I visited that site about Benson. The name Taft is indeed associated with many Skull and Bones members. But, Ezra Taft Benson is hardly Skull and Bones. Don't you sorta have to go to Yale to be in Skull and Bones? He went to Utah St. and BYU. Good try, though."

im not saying he is Skull & Bones.

but considering his family STARTED skull & bones, i would say the connection is valid.

one
human?

3:24 p.m.  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

pedophilia is older than any notion of satan. and you don't need a cult to perpetrate it, though it sometimes helps. situating it entirely within ritual abuse is titillating but also too easy: often people would prefer to believe in a dark cult of abuse, because it sort-of quarantines the evil, than to admit that something as horrid as pedophilia is universal and even mundane.

if you haven't looked into him already, herbert W armstrong had an interesting gig going. (there was always emphasis on the w, what's up with the w's??)

http://www.explore-biography.com/religious_figures/H/ Herbert_W._Armstrong.html

http://www.reformation.com/CSA/ armstrong1.htm

http://www.rickross.com/reference/ wwchurch/wwchurch1.html

...though to my knowledge there are no lurid accounts yet by fallen comrades.

4:51 p.m.  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Jeff,
In the hopes you and possibly some RI readers might find it interesting: I've recently posted a rather long assessment at my own website "deconsumption"...forgive the spam, but what I published there was essentially only an RI discussion topic which I wanted to contribute, but which became too long for this format. And it happened also to fit the theme I've been developing there....

Two renowned esoteric scholars writing in the early 20th century, Rene Guenon and Julius Evola, have quite comprehensively outlined the place and "rise" of the so-called "Satanic" principle in Western society--as a conscious and intentionally subersive force operating "in the shadows" over many centuries toward corrupting the human sphere on many levels. This last century, they claim, has marked the appearance of a decisive and final stage in this movement of subversion.

Hopefully it will be of interest and prove helpful.

Link: http://deconsumption.typepad.com/deconsumption/2005/06/the_concept_of_.html

7:06 p.m.  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Renowned" isn't the word I would use to describe Baron Julius Evola... Baron Evola was responsible for pushing Mussolini's regime in a more racist and anti-semittic direction. He was a bona fide Nazi, which one should keep in mind when reading him. He has been one of the central post-war Nazi theorists, a protagonist of "Aryan" neo-fascist mysticism. Another key figure in that field was the Chilean Miguel Serrano, who coined the term "esoteric Hitlerism" and wrote books with titles like "Hitler el ultimo avatar". His thesis is that Hitler didn't die in his bunker, but escaped in a UFO (!)

Both have sought to disconnect the Third Reich from its concrete historical experience and reset it in an occult context in which Hitler is a great hero and "ascended master". Which probably was how the Nazis saw themselves at the time as well.

8:20 p.m.  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

PeNoSh-

>>I have close friends who were in this movement.

i was there, and i didn't even get a lousy t-shirt.

>>But I've never heard anything about satanism or ritual abuse.

That's precisely my point: looking for ritual abuse is sometimes a distraction in itself.

i'm incredibly intrigued by the gay parties though... i was a kid and honestly had zero gay consciousness or exposure. all the troubles i saw were with straights. do tell!

(offline at casualgeorge at yahoo dot etc)

10:10 p.m.  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You know there sure seem to be a lot of Ex Mormon's running around on Blogs.

As one myself, I can highly recommend Brody's book. Even if there are one or two errors in it, it's a damning indictment of Joseph Smith and the Church of Latter Day Saints.

Anonymous 3 had a pretty good take on Mormonism. Oh and they are Christian, as they do worship Christ, however misguidedly.

As one of those Mormon's that Anon3 mentioned "They are also often deeply anguished at their own failure to live up to all the high ideals and requirements for achieving thier salvation and ultimate exaltation."

My marriage was failing (due to the fact I was coming to the realization the church was a crock of you know what). I had been sent by my Bishop to therapy at a church approved Mormon therapist.

This is why I chose to make an entry on this thread. I believe that all sorts of abuses happen, but many such as this in the Mormon Church should be taken with a grain of salt.

I'll tell you why. My good ol' Mormon Therapist became convinced that I had been abused in my childhood and wanted to put me through all sorts of crap to bring it out. Now, knowing a bit about Hypnosis and seeing how she was leading me, I refused. As far as I know I've never been abused and if I had MPD, I'm sure it would've manifested itself by now. The only result of this supposed abuse is I'm kind of a sex addict. LOL What's wrong with that?

The problem with these memories is that they can easily be conflated into something they weren't. Even totally made up if the person/therapist/bishop is leading the percipient.

I'm not saying these kind of things don't happen, I don't know. There's certainly abuse inside Mormon families like any others, perhaps even more than others. But I would say that a Mormon Bishop is not qualified to have done a study on this subject unless he has the medical/sociological bona fides to do so (and knowing about Mormon Bishops I doubt he did).

Anyways, I know about MK-ULTRA and COINTELPRO, and the Mormon's definitely have their own "Secret Police" and are heavily involved in Intelligence (I've also heard, because of their loyalty and willingness to take orders). So could there be a connection there, your guess is as good as mine.

But take the Satanic Ritual Abuse with a grain of salt wherever it comes from.

7:29 a.m.  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

It is well to remember that "memories" referred to in relation to traumatic experiences are "Abreactions" (Freudian term). i.e. virtual reliving the experience often with physical sensations such as pain and smell. They are not re-memberings. Abreactions can be physically monitored and cannot be faked. The "False Memory" people deliberately confuse ordinary memory with traumatic memory or abreactions and many parrot this misunderstanding (misinformation) without realising what they are doing.

2:09 a.m.  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Do people revisit the comments on "old" threads? I hope so. I was reading "The Men Who Stare at Goats" (discussed elsewhere here) and found this little nigget tucked away which seems to confirm the worst fears of some of the responses above. I can't find the quote, but this paraphrase is accurate. The author was interviewing someone who'd been into the heart of darkness at Abu Ghraib, and seen the various intelligence units who gathered there. One of the groups was "from Utah - they were Mormons ..."
So thre we have it. A first hand eyewitness account of a group (nb plural, not just one guy) of Mormons in the "interrogation" facility at Abu Ghraib. Obviously, therefore, chosen for the invitation on account of their "faith".
So my question is - no, wiat - THE question is -

WHY?

Why the fuck were a bunch of Mormons invited to Abu Ghraib? What the fuck were they doing there?

Damn. That's two questions already. Anyway, I hope this isn't lost in the torrent of information, but is noted as a significant dot ...

7:18 a.m.  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Apologies for typos.

7:19 a.m.  
Blogger Jeff Wells said...

Thanks for the info re the Mormon unit at Abu Ghraib. "WHY?" is an excellent question.

10:30 a.m.  
Blogger TheUltimateCyn said...

"Anonymous said...
On another subject: I am curious if anyone out there has ever heard of IQ tests and "gifted programs" being used to identify and track children with extraordinary talents--I've come up blank. "

Ok, this is going to be weird, but it is VERY true. I have dated 2 men who oddly enough are from Iowa, and both are "gifted". One actually has to return to Iowa every so often and be "tested" by the doctor [or affiliates] who were there when he was born [he gets a gold coin each time he "tests" for them]. His family is Eckist. Of note: his mother is deaf and wears a coclear implant. He has an extreme gift of artistry and music, and no hearing impairments.
He has 3 mass like "objects" in his right upper thigh, and also an odd hard "splinter" like item in his right earlobe...
He is NOT one who subscribes to UFO's and all that, he never even considers any of it as anything other than "funnies" from the internet.
The other guy from Iowa has extreme behavior swings... and often times talked about being abducted. He has moments where he makes no sense and then clear lucidity about things - he's sometimes scary. He says his children may have been abducted at one time. They do all act a little "odd"...

Anyway, that is all I know, someone who HAS and IS tested often [even as a grown man] by some "people" in Iowa.

12:03 p.m.  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Jeff, here's the quote in full. Ronson's source "was in charge of the super-classified computer network at Abu Ghraib. He set up the system and handed out the user names and passwords."
"There were intelligence people turning up there I never knew existed," he said. "There was a unit from Utah. All Mormons."
There's a little more information here than in my paraphrase, and it's key - it was an *intelligence unit*.

12:32 p.m.  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous 13 said: "Why the fuck were a bunch of Mormons invited to Abu Ghraib? What the fuck were they doing there?"

I post on another Blog quite a lot not anonymously, and the other night, I said that if I were still in the military, I would've been at Abu Ghraib. I can answer your question for you, it's not anything sinister having to do with Mormon's at all.

There is a Military Intelligence Brigade in the Utah National Guard, which I was a member of. It's the 300th MI Brigade. It's made up of linguists primarily, and during Gulf 1 we were called up as translators, but we were also going to be called up as guards and interrogators because the Iraqi's were surrendering so fast they didn't have enough people who understood the process and not necessarily the language.

Since this is a Utah National Guard unit, it is by default filled with Mormon's. Come on guys, there's nothing sinister in this case. Other than the Bush Administration ordering them to do what they did at Abu Ghraib.

Now, if you happen to see a rise in Mormon's doing Satanic Ritual Abuse after this war, you may have a point. Until then you're barking up the wrong tree.

I'm not defending Mormonism, it IS a wacked out religion based on lies, like most are in my opinion. Mormon's are a gullible lot so they're going to buy into the SRA stuff naturally. That doesn't make it true.

And Jim, I didn't know that about Abreactions, that is interesting. However, I'm also not defending the "False Memory" folks. I'm just speaking from my own personal experience and those of people I have known first hand regarding Hypnotism, and gullibility in the Mormon Church. I am just saying sometimes a Cigar is just a Cigar.

9:42 p.m.  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Thanks for that, Pope Anonymous, but I find *anything* and *everything* that happens at Abu Ghraib sinister. And I certainly don't buy the translation angle - no disrespect intended.

4:25 a.m.  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

What Pope Anonymous says is correct re the 300th MI Brigade. I know some of these guys personally, or at least have overheard some of their conversations re time in Iraq. I'm by no means Mormon. The linguistics angle is a result of the church recruiting worldwide. The missionaries get language instruction from the church, go out for two years, and come back at least conversant in a foreign language. The Army MI eats these guys up, but not because of the church.
http://www.ut.ngb.army.mil/300mi/default.htm

1:44 p.m.  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"So thre we have it. A first hand eyewitness account of a group (nb plural, not just one guy) of Mormons in the "interrogation" facility at Abu Ghraib. Obviously, therefore, chosen for the invitation on account of their "faith"."

Very poor logic. Would you say the same about a Guard unit from Boston consisting mostly of Catholics?

1:49 p.m.  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Title: Utah, Mormon Masonic Merovingians,Broken Posse Commutatus; Religious Manchurian Candidates

Author: reader and quoter
Date: 2005.08.25 07:28
Description: So just what IS IT about Utah? Below, some quotes I thought all should be aware of about Utah history and politics and the 'national security' infrastructure and experiments there, and the bloodline and occult issues of the founders and higher-ups. These quotes should be read with: Utah rave shut down by "police officers" with assault rifles and dogs 13:16 Aug-22 (58 comments) http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2005/08/323417.shtml

http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2005/08/323602.shtml

10:29 p.m.  
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