Sunday, February 05, 2006

JFC Fuller's Army



But there's no danger
It's a professional career - Elvis Costello


Just a quick note about how they're the damnedest things, the things I didn't know.

Since I was fourteen or so I've had on my bookshelf a copy of JFC Fuller's Decisive Battles of the Western World. I knew he was a Major General, an early advocate of air power and mechanized assault, and a popular military historian. I'd known his philosophy of armoured warfare won more favour in Germany than in Britain, and that it became the blitzkrieg of commanders such as Heinz Guderian. And that was about it. What I didn't know was Fuller was both a fascist and an occultist, and no slouch at either.

Fuller served on the Policy Directorate of Oswald Mosley's British Union of Fascists, and was the only Englishman honoured with an invitation to Adolf Hitler's 50th birthday party in 1939. He was also a life-long Thelemite and an early advocate of Aleister Crowley. A .pdf of Fuller's early study of Crowley, The Star in the West, can be read online here, and also his Secret Wisdom of the Qabalah. (By the way, an online edition of his Foundation of the Science of War is hosted by the US Army Command and General Staff.) He was also an accomplished artist of occult subjects. That's his work, entitled "Knowledge and Conversation," next to his portrait in the above illustration. Kenneth Grant, in Outer Gateways, states that Fuller actually drew the sigils for Liber XII, "one of the most mysterious communications every received by Crowley" under alleged inspiration of the entity Aiwass.

Grant adds that Fuller's sigils are evocative of those reproduced by purported UFO contactee George Adamski, who insisted that they were "not to be interpreted mystically, but as glyphs of the nut-and-bolt variety." (In the 1950s Adamski asserted he had been contacted by "spacemen" from Venus, much as the occupants of the airship of 1897 claimed to have been out-of-state rather than off-world. Now, the claims of origin are most often distant stars. The lies, whether human or trans-human, keep abreast of science's plausible denial.)

Grant writes:

It is well known that Hitler had occult affiliations, and that one of his chief engineers was the celebrated Werner von Braun who later enabled the Americans to visit the moon. Is it not feasible that Hitler, in favouring Fuller as he did, was not only interested in Fuller's tank designs but also in his other, more recherche machines? The fact should not be overlooked that Hitler was in contact with entities as enigmatic and as alarming as Aiwass, and perhaps his interpretations of the messages he received from them were as coloured by his conditioning as were those of Crowley.

So, what's the point? Two points: if we mean to combat fascism, then we should learn to recognize it on our bookshelves and in the mindbombs dropped by respectable fascists. (Fuller's Generalship of Ulysses S Grant is still an influential study of the Civil War strategist, though one Amazon reviewer does chide his history of The Second World War for barely mentioning the extermination of millions of Jews, Gypsies and Slavs.) Also, we had also better brush up on our occultism. Because we can't really know the fascist character if we project upon it our familiar secular and liberal mental landscapes. That is going to take us to mad places, but that's the nature of comprehending the method.

80 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Fuller was not alone in his view of events involving the Jews in the Second World War:

"I've checked out Churchill's Second World War and the statement
is quite correct—not a single mention of Nazi 'gas chambers,' a
'genocide' of the Jews, or of 'six million' Jewish victims of the war.

This is astonishing. How can it be explained?

Eisenhower's Crusade in Europe is a book of 559 pages; the six
volumes of Churchill's Second World War total 4,448 pages; and
de Gaulle's three-volume Mémoires de guerre is 2,054 pages. In this
mass of writing, which altogether totals 7,061 pages (not including
the introductory parts), published from 1948 to 1959, one will find
no mention either of Nazi 'gas chambers,' a 'genocide' of the Jews,
or of 'six million' Jewish victims of the war."

— Richard Lynn, Professor Emeritus,
University of Ulster, December 5, 2005

One awaits the deliberations of the Conference on this very subject which the Iranians are proposing.

6:41 AM  
Blogger Sounder said...

An interesting book-
The Spear of Destiny by Trevor Ravenscroft; The occult power behind the spear which pierced the side of christ...and how Hitler inverted the force in a bid to conquer the world.

It seems that occultists and fascists share similar personality traits in that both feel special and that they then have an obligation to impose their will on their less gifted brethren. However, by their own admission, the Word has been lost. The lost 'Word' resides behind the wall of ego that will not let them see that there is no autonomous I, --or some such thing.

7:48 AM  
Blogger Philip Schoolcraft said...

Interesting post, but I'm compelled to point out that Ulysses S. Grant was not a Confederate general.

8:02 AM  
Blogger Philip Schoolcraft said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

8:03 AM  
Blogger Jeff said...

Ah nuts, of course he wasn't. Thanks, I'll edit.

9:10 AM  
Anonymous starroute said...

An amazing number of leading artists, writers, scientists, politicians, and prominent figures in general turn out to have been operating from some kind of occult belief system when you look at them closely.

These leanings are generally considered embarrassing and glossed over in public accounts of their lives -- or at the very least, treated as individual eccentricities.

I would love to see an occult history of the 20th century -- one that not only took these matters seriously and put them at the center of the story, but attempted to sort out the political implications of various occult affiliations. (Anybody wanna start a wiki?)

10:03 AM  
Anonymous Sepka the Space Weasel said...

I'm left curious - Why do you feel fascism to be that which requires combatting, rather than evil itself?

-Sepka the Space Weasel

10:42 AM  
Anonymous slomo said...

It seems that occultists and fascists share similar personality traits... [sounder]

An amazing number of leading artists, writers, scientists, politicians, and prominent figures in general turn out to have been operating from some kind of occult belief system when you look at them closely. [starroute]

Why do you assume that there is a monolithic "occult" belief system?

Perhaps it is simply this: of the myriad mythologies that you lump into the "occult" category, many (most?) are more direct and faithful representations of the Truth than the pablum that passes for mainstream religious doctrine; therefore, those who follow these richer models of reality are consequently more powerful or successful at whatever it is they set out to do. In particular, fascists are interested in controlling the wills of others through military might, and so they take interest in whatever means, material or metaphysical, that allows them to do this.

11:02 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I recently watched Invincible by Werner Herzog starring Tim Roth. It's about a guy called Erik Jan Hanussen, who staged some occult theatrics in his Palace of the Occult in prewar Germany, and Zishe Breitbart, a Jewish strongman from a small village who goes to Berlin to perform for Hanussen. Hanussen turned out to be a fraud, at least in the movie. But it is supposedly based on a true story. Anyone familiar with this movie and how accurate it is?

11:06 AM  
Blogger Jeff said...

I'm left curious - Why do you feel fascism to be that which requires combatting, rather than evil itself?

I phrased it as a rhetorical question - "if we mean to combat fascism" - because I was addressing those readers who've suggested that getting metaphysical risks losing the plot. If we consider only the politics of fascism we haven't learned the lessons of the 20th Century, and we'll be taught harder ones in the 21st.

12:43 PM  
Blogger RDR said...

Anonymous 11:06am, Hanussen is a simple Internet search.

hanussen+hitler+astrologer

1:27 PM  
Blogger P-Tar said...

Hate to say it, but just because someone's a fascist occultist doesn't mean that they don't have valid military insights. For instance, while I believe that Hitler was a madman, Rommell was brilliant.

As to the whole Holocaust bit, I can see that to a Major General who's personally presided over the deaths of tens of thousands, the victims weren't a big point in his book because he's focused on the conduct of the war itself, and not the political consequences of it: that's for the politicians to clean up. Interned prisoners don't have much effect on combat unless they're YOUR prisoners and freeing them gives a morale boost, if they're tying up critical enemy forces that are committed to guarding them, or perhaps if they're blocking a key objective. Now, had his directive been to free the prisoners and arm them with a million or so M1 Garands and a few dozen tons of 30.06 bullets (good LUCK getting one of those poor starved wights to carry even fifteen pounds of fighting gear!), he might have focused on their part of the story.

1:42 PM  
Blogger Dale said...

And of course it is only a strange coincidence that Senator Prescot Bush (Jr's Granddad) made a fortune underwriting the I.G. Farben construction company - which used his funding to build Auschwitz. This being the only legal way he could continue "investing" in the German War Machine after his blatant weapon sales were halted by a Congressional Law passed specifically to force him to stop supplying a declared enemy with armaments.

2:04 PM  
Anonymous Viva Jesu said...

Perhaps it is simply this: of the myriad mythologies that you lump into the "occult" category, many (most?) are more direct and faithful representations of the Truth than the pablum that passes for mainstream religious doctrine;

No, sir, all of them are lies. Truth is one, error is many. And by sheer weight of numbers, error can smother Truth if allowed free reign.

Come back to Christ, Rome and Tradition, for your soul's good and your mind's sanity and peace.

www.sspx.org

2:46 PM  
Blogger Biff said...

With reference to the observation by Professor Richard Lyn that the histories of the Second World War by the likes of Winston Churchill, Dwight Eisenhower, Charles De Gaulle and others, were silent about the genocide of the Jews.

Perhaps they were silent because they knew that millions of German Jews could have been saved if the United States, Britain, and other countries around the world had been prepared to take them in. Jews were even prevented from going to Palestine, since boats headed there with Jews aboard were apprehended on the high seas by the British, and its passengers arrested and put into camps.

So arguably the pioneers of all the countless “boat people” of the twentieth century were German and other European Jews escaping Hitler.

Thus the leading countries of the alliance against Hitler were complicit in the Holocaust, since millions of Jews wanted to escape the concentration camps but had nowhere to go.

This resistance to the immigration of large numbers of Jews reflected the pervasive and ingrained historical anti-Semitism of Europeans and Americans, an attitude probably shared by their leaders of the time, albeit unconsciously.

So when they saw Hitler, they saw themselves, and were disquieted by what they saw, for Hitler was their face looking back at them. So he had to be got rid of.

2:52 PM  
Anonymous starroute said...

slomo asked, "Why do you assume that there is a monolithic "occult" belief system?"

I don't. That's why I spoke of "some kind of occult belief system" and then expressed a wish for a history that "attempted to sort out the political implications of various occult affiliations."

I didn't speak more explicitly because I don't know the politics of early-mid 20th century occultism well enough, especially on the left. I could mutter a little about Bucky Fuller or Upton Sinclair, but I'd really be talking through my hat. And, as the discussions of New Age-i-ness here have shown, even some people who pitch a liberal line can turn out to have a secret elitist agenda.

That's why I'd really love to see some clarity brought into the discussion.

3:07 PM  
Blogger RDR said...

"Viva Jesu", here's your tradition of Roman Catholic theocracy, at the zenith of it's power, for you.

As a Christian, it pains me to remind you of this history. But it has to be done.

3:42 PM  
Anonymous slomo said...

Come back to Christ, Rome and Tradition, for your soul's good and your mind's sanity and peace.

I don't wish to start a flame-war, but suffice to say that it is quite easy to catalogue the evils perpetrated by the Roman Catholic Church and in the name of Christ, up to and including complicity with fascists (and Nazis in particular), right through to our modern day American televangelists and their questionable political ties.

(I have no illusions about, for example, Tibetan Buddhism. But institutional Christianity is one of the major mental/spiritual traps set in America today, and because of the numbers of people at risk, far more dangerous than New Age in my opinion, not that the latter is innocuous.)

4:13 PM  
Anonymous slomo said...

I don't. That's why I spoke of "some kind of occult belief system" and then expressed a wish for a history that "attempted to sort out the political implications of various occult affiliations."

starroute, no criticism intended. Just an attempt to clarify for the sake of discussion.

BTW, your comment the other day about the margins between chaos and order (in analogy with phase transitions between states of matter) spawned a rather fruitful contemplation, bringing up questions that are still quite unresolved in my mind. Thanks!! :)

4:17 PM  
Anonymous Nate said...

Anti-semitism in 'Christian' societies has always boggled me. My flavour of Christianity has always just taken it for granted that the Jews are Jesus' family. And even Apostle Paul, that great 'Jew-hater' says 'the Jews are the true olive tree, the nations are the one grafted into the family.' I've never understood how you could be an anti-semite without at a fundamental level, hating the idea of the Incarnation. You'd have to believe in a Christ who was some kind of disembodied spirit or formless Idea with no historical footprint at all and more importantly, no human love of any kind. Something more like an Ascended Master than a Messiah.

But it seems that's exactly the doctrine that managed to spread throughout the European church, and it just makes me feel bizarre.

4:37 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Shorter Viva Jesu:

Turn off your brain, rest easy. We're happy to provide you with all the answers.

4:37 PM  
Anonymous albion said...

IMO one indissoluble element of fascism is the myth of national or racial rebirth or renewal - "palingenesis".

Actually that's not my opinion, I got it from the scholar of fascism, Roger Griffin.

5:01 PM  
Anonymous Nate said...

Viva Jesu:

It's interesting, because as a Protestant I've generally assumed that the Roman superstructure of religious tradition built since the Early Church was bogus and verging on darkly occultic myself. Sola fide, sola scriptura, etc.

Nowadays I'm coming around to the idea that there *are* valid spiritual experiences and writings that are not evil in themselves, but may in fact have simply been visionaries writing honestly about what they experienced. I'm still not a fan of the heavy top-down centralism of Rome (wherever it's found - the American Evangelical/Pentecostal spectrum seems to be heading down that road as fast as it can, with George W Bush as a new Pope, so it's not a denominational issue) - but I'm coming to realise that there's a vast treasure of spiritual observations that the Protestant movement abandoned entirely .

What would your reaction be, coming from the Roman tradition, to a 'channelling' (spontaneously occurring, not forced and not using black arts of any kind) of an entity calling himself St Stephen the Martyr? Is that the sort of thing saints are expected to do? We don't have much truck with saints in my tradition, but I have in my hands a book transcribed from tape-recordings of sessions with just such a 'saint', thirty years ago. I've met the couple involved - they're both nice, sane people and appear to be practicing Christians. The content of Stephen's teachings appears to be quite conservative theologically in many ways, and focused almost entirely on Jesus. Literal virgin birth, spiritual resurrection. Literal second coming. When asked 'is the Christ within us?' his answer was 'actually it's more like the Christ we are within'. The soul survives the body but we should not despise the body because it is a wonderful work of God. There is no duality of absolute Good vs absolute Evil: there is only God, and us who he is forming as a painter would a painting ('but with intelligent paint'). Evil is more an absence of good than a force in itself. Evil spiritual entities exist, but they are not the equal of God in any sense. The only part I find strange is a casual acceptance of reincarnation, which I have never thought was Christian, but otoh, I'm not sure it's specifically *anti*-Christian.

Anyway, it's made me think: I've seen how even a Christian church can implode into a destructive cult very easily. Just having the name doesn't protect against evil, it's more about whether we choose to love and embrace outsiders or not. So I can quite see how the field of what we call 'occult' could have originated with valid spiritual revelations (such as Bohme et al), but then been perverted into cults by those attempting to use this knowledge for power-seeking. Stephen (as other Christian teachers) seems very insistent that there is no safe way to encounter the spiritual realm other than through *love* and through *receiving* what is given to us rather than attempting to wrestle gain to ourselves.

It makes me feel safer, somehow, thinking that it's not that there's this vast store of intrinsically evil, occult knowledge - but that there are a lot of people seeking evil use of what is possibly a neutral or even good medium but one that is fantastically delicate and sensitive to our motivations. As we seek, so we will find - if we seek power, we will find darkness, if we seek love, we will find light. Will our father give us a stone, if we seek bread?

5:14 PM  
Blogger John1975 said...

Great blog! I found it while searching for something about Bosnia.

I'm an avid reader of military history, especially WWII, and found your latest entry interesting and will do my own research on this subject just to learn more about it.

John

6:29 PM  
Anonymous albion said...

Here are a few links to articles by Roger Griffin. They're dry and academic, and on quite a few matters he takes a substantially different POV than what is current around here. But he puts forth quite a few interesting concepts about what constitutes fascism.

The palingenetic core of generic fascist ideology (pdf)

'I Am No Longer Human. I Am A Titan. A God!' The Fascist Quest To Regenerate Time

“Shattering crystals”: the role of “dream time” in extreme right-wing political violence (pdf)

From slime mould to rhizome: an introduction to the groupuscular right (pdf)

6:45 PM  
Anonymous dude h said...

just wanted to say thanks for the post as usual, and theres no need to defend your position re: the occult and how it ties into all this: almost every other author out there who does puts it into some bunko religious framework. you are to date the only one who can make the connection, make it stick, and not fuck up your credibility with some antichrist NWO pablum.

so keep it coming, and take us as far down that rabbit hole as you feel.

8:50 PM  
Anonymous Dugoboy said...

in response to Jeff:

Jeff said...

sepka the space weasal said...

I'm left curious - Why do you feel fascism to be that which requires combatting, rather than evil itself?

"I phrased it as a rhetorical question - "if we mean to combat fascism" - because I was addressing those readers who've suggested that getting metaphysical risks losing the plot. If we consider only the politics of fascism we haven't learned the lessons of the 20th Century, and we'll be taught harder ones in the 21st."

12:43 PM

i agree jeff. i didn't mean to suggest only the politics matter. their occult beliefs do matter, it informs their every motive, idea and action. as any belief stucture does. all i'm saying is that it doesn't mean they are controlled by some dark energy reality transcending being. the mind is a powerful thing when its lead to believe certain things, be it truth or immense falsehoods.

9:06 PM  
Anonymous Dugoboy said...

i reread the last part of the article. all true. especially the understanding of occultism, such a broad category in itself. its also how things have been able to keep on going as they have. exploitation of ignorance = power.

thusly knowledge is a good counter power.

9:13 PM  
Blogger Nicco Knight said...

You say, "If we mean to combat fascism...we better brush up on occultism"

Okay. So Hitler was a fascist, and an occultist. And I presume that you see fascism creeping up the front steps. So where is the occultism in today's putative would-be Benitos?

10:04 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Sinister Forces by Peter Levenda

10:50 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

nicco knight said: Okay. So Hitler was a fascist, and an occultist. And I presume that you see fascism creeping up the front steps. So where is the occultism in today's putative would-be Benitos?

Bohemian Grove maybe?

http://www.infowars.com/bg_section.html
http://www.geocities.com/bohemian_grove_dirt/

11:17 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

If you’re thinking of reading Peter Levenda’s book Sinister Forces, don’t bother. I can save you $29.95 plus shipping and handling.

On page 109 he writes: “That cults do exist is also known. But there is no evidence that cultists in the United States have any political power or influence...”

Have a bit of free disinformation with your tea and cakes. Just turn on the telly. It’s cheaper.

11:55 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Very interesting post.

I clicked on some of your embedded links and have been reading this JFC Fuller guy’s “Secret Wisdom of the Qabalah.” It is fascinating book, only 92 pages, and very understandable.

Yet I am perplexed. Throughout the work, Fuller writes in a tone of admiration, and from the consisten position as a faithful participant in the Qabalistic plan for man’s future. If he was a Nazi, and I am not saying that he was not - seeing that you wrote he was invited to Hitler's 50th birthday party, then how does one understand the following passage which are his own words (page 73):

In short, the Chosen People are the light of the world, a light which at present is mixed with darkness (the Gentiles or children of Esau). This darkness will vanish little by little; first Israel will “look forth as the dawn”, next she will “become fair as the moon”, then “as clear as the sun”, and lastly “terrible as an army with banners”. Such is the reformulation of YHVH. When this is
accomplished, not a Gentile will be left to pollute the earth; for Israel will have become its Messianic Shin which will untie the tongue of God, and on the utterance of His name will the entire universe vanish into absolute light. Such is the inner meaning of illuminism to the Qabalist.

Over to you, Jeff.

12:09 AM  
Anonymous Ivan Prokopchuk said...

Found the war dangerous. Father in death camp.
How the hell did he get out?
How the hell did we get in, and back to his/our life?
Family mystery.
Blind luck.
Shit- from -geese department.
Wrote about it. Black Icon.
People said I was Jerzy Kosinki clone. Jerzy was CIA. Killed himself in a Winn Dixie shopping bag.
WTF
Wrote book on it. The Black Icon.
Our of print, but both Canucks and Your-alls loved it.
Something, I guess.
Can't write shit, but man, have I got material.

12:15 AM  
Anonymous starroute said...

nicco knight said --

Okay. So Hitler was a fascist, and an occultist. And I presume that you see fascism creeping up the front steps. So where is the occultism in today's putative would-be Benitos?

One possibility is that it's passing as some of the more secretive forms of Christianity. I'm thinking in particular of the Fellowship Foundation. See, for example, Wayne Madsen on the group -- its Nazi roots and continuing connections to right-wing politics.

Being as it's Madsen, the piece sprawls all over the place, and some of it clearly has to be taken with a grain of salt. But the general picture strikes me as sound. The secretive and cult-like nature of the group is undeniable. And the indications of its influence within the military (Madsen names General Boykin as a member) are thought-provoking.

Remember -- Americans in general aren't particularly intellectual, so any widespread fascistic occult movement can't be expected to have an elaborate theosophical-type structure. The Foundation Fellowship is just about what you'd expect to find filling the niche.

For more, see this article from the LA Times, this one from Harper's, or this from the Portland Phoenix.

It may also be significant that the names of congressional members of the Fellowship Foundation regularly come up in connection with Tom DeLay and Jack Abramoff -- including Charles Grassley, John Ensign, James Inhofe, Conrad Burns, Jim DeMint, and Todd Tiahrt. (I think there's a LaRouche piece out there on DeLay which mentions some of this, and which is either totally whacked or right on. With LaRouche, one never knows.)

10:26 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Try thinking straight: if Churchill, de Gaulle, Eisenhower, the Vatican and the International Red Cross (who inspected the Nazi camps) didn't believe in the murder of those millions of Jews then perhaps it suggests it never happened. These people were all in an excellent position to know, surely? Why should any of them, let alone all, seek to cover up a Nazi crime? Three major political memoirs all deliberately written to not mention what most sheeple now think is the best known event of the Second World War does not make sense - unless the authors did not believe the Jewish nightmare fantasies. And if those guys didn't, try thinking about why you do, who wants you to think that way and why.

10:33 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Try thinking straight: Churchill, de Gaulle, Eisenhower, the Vatican and the International Red Cross (who inspected the Nazi camps, including Auschwitz) all decline to confirm the Jewish nightmare fantasies. Three major political memoirs each deliberately written to ignore what most sheeple think is the best-known "fact" about the Second World War doesn't make any sense - unless it isn't a fact at all. If these guys didn't believe in the exterminations, why do you? And who wants you to believe in them, and why?

10:41 AM  
Blogger RoadsEnd said...

It is quite interesting to see the "anonymous" campaign against Levenda's work. Hmmm ...
This "turd" and another left behind at Amazon belie their agendas with their rhetoric.

The turd placed here, interestingly uses the retail price of the book,to dissuade purchase, when most folks know that books may be purchased at substantial discounts.
Also anonymouses "complaint: is very subjective

Anonymous said...
On page 109 he writes: “That cults do exist is also known. But there is no evidence that cultists in the United States have any political power or influence...”


and doesn't include the rest of the paragraph, where Levenda says -- skeptics have been forced to admit, "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."

Levenda's books are a very serious and factual research into the occult, intelligence agencies, cultic and individual activities that effect the world we live in.

Whether a person buys, gets from a library or borrows from a friend, I dunna care. But I do recommend reading his works.

Peace,
Kris Millegan
TrineDay, publisher of Sinister Forces.

11:41 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Still waiting for an answer to this very pertinent quesiton...
Very interesting post.

I clicked on some of your embedded links and have been reading this JFC Fuller guy’s “Secret Wisdom of the Qabalah.” It is a fascinating book, only 92 pages, and very understandable. He is quite clearly a devoted scholar of Qabalah, covering Hebrew linquistics, metaphysics, numerology, teleology and cosmogony.

Yet I am perplexed. Throughout the work, Fuller writes in a tone of sincere admiration, and from the consistent position as a faithful participant in the Qabalistic plan for man’s future. If he was a Nazi, and I am not saying that he was not - seeing that you wrote he was invited to Hitler's 50th birthday party, and refer to him as a major European fascist multiple times, then how does one understand the following passage which are his own words (page 73):

"In short, the Chosen People are the light of the world, a light which at present is mixed with darkness (the Gentiles or children of Esau). This darkness will vanish little by little; first Israel will “look forth as the dawn”, next she will “become fair as the moon”, then “as clear as the sun”, and lastly “terrible as an army with banners”. Such is the reformulation of YHVH. When this is
accomplished, not a Gentile will be left to pollute the earth; for Israel will have become its Messianic Shin which will untie the tongue of God, and on the utterance of His name will the entire universe vanish into absolute light. Such is the inner meaning of illuminism to the Qabalist."

Over to you, Jeff.

12:36 PM  
Anonymous Josh said...

Anonymous 10:41, your comments have made me think and made me do research.

The most legendary of the camps, of course is Auschwitz. I was taught in school that up to 2,000,00 Jews were killed there. But, as I look at things, the numbers just don't add up.

I always say, well, look at the math...

From a Wikipedia entry on the Nazi extermination and labor camps (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nazi_concentration_camps)we see that most of these camps ran for only a few years of the war. Auschwitz has a listing of 1 to 1.5 million deaths. Well, taken what I learned from our wonderful public education system and giving Wiki a little credence too, let's just say the number killed at that camp was 1.5 million over 5 years. That comes down to almost 1,000 people being exterminated per DAY nonstop for 5 years. This just doesn't make intuitive sense to me. And the numbers from the other camps are not that extensive.

So, what's it mean? Where did that number of 6 million come from anyway? Do we dare call it a "meme"?

2:52 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You know, you Holocaust Deniers are guilty of heresy.

You should be locked up.

3:15 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Crowley, at least on one occassion, considered Fuller to have imparted to him messages from "the secret chiefs." So while Crowley definitely had an influence on Fuller, it's worth pointing out the influence went the other direction as well.

A book I've been meaning to check out but haven't read is John Symond's The Medusa's Head or Conversations between Crowley and Hitler. It isn't clear if the book is a novel or purports to be historical. But what it does do is outline the similarities between the philosophies of Crowley and Hitler.

My own personal thought is that, like all aristocrats of the time, Crowley was an opportunist. He used the intelligence apparatus to make connections on both sides of the war, thus ensuring when the world went a certain way, he'd still have a safe place at the table.

Never trust a double agent.

3:20 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Here's a section from The Medusa's Head:

http://www.illuminati-news.com/crowley_hitler.htm

3:21 PM  
Blogger 23skidoo said...

I cannot sit passively when people question the Shoah and nobody refutes his line of revisionist thought. First, those who would challenge accepted history, the popular and widely held, officially endorsed and widely covered belief system, bear primary responsibility for disproving the dominant line of thought with their own argument. I have said before and say again that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. How can one "prove" or "disprove" history? Often those who would challenge the dominant strain of thought have personal and irrational bases.

I saw Raul Hilberg speak when I was in school. He speaks German, among other languages and told us he personally documented the meticulous German records coordinating the train transports to the concentration camps. He is an old man, one of the remains of a dying generation, those who saw the deaths of civilians first-hand, many of which have been documented in writing and in video.

To imply that what all older Jews have told the younger generations were lies is simply anti-Jewish. To say that first-hand witnesses and survivors lied is ridiculous, and can only be supported with supposition and presumption. Nearly all Jewish families with roots in Europe in the early 20th century lost somebody in their family, or were dislocated as a result including me. Some of my relatives are co-nationals with Mr. Wells because of US immigration policies. We are not fools for believing what we were told by relatives and teachers, of first-hand witnesses and those like Hilberg who did the research, and to say we are is again anti-Jewish, indicative of prejudice. I am suspicious that such people have an agenda.

Of course, there was no census of poor, rural, agricultural Jewish communities across Europe, so the numbers of 6 million are estimates, but informed and educated estimates should not be subject to radical downward revisions by those with demonstrated and proven anti-Jewish sentiments. Who cares whether it was exactly six million or thereabouts? I cannot even conceptualize such large numbers.

I must explain also that I am not regarded as Jewish by those in control of the Israeli government, nor am I a "Zionist." People reveal ignorance when they speak of "The Jews" or "Jews" without distinguishing between the orthodox and ultra-orthodox who hold undue power in Israel and view the conservatives, reforms, and reconstructionists as non-Jewish. The Israelis do the world a disservice when they try to couch anti-Zionism as "anti-Semitism." Liberal American Jews are not "Jewish" under official Israeli religious guidelines. They are a theocracy, elected by the people, and I will never understand that. But to Jew haters, we are of course all "Jews," whether liberal, "half-Jews," or even converts if the classifier happens to be a Nazi sympathizer (or a white supremicist).

To compare my religious beliefs and practice to those of the orthodox or ultras is like comparing American Protestantism to Greek Orthodox practice, or a Sunni Muslim with a Shiite. Sunniis and Shiites do not regard one another as Muslims in many places--Iraq, for example. And As I said, in most contexts and discussions, grouping all Jewish religious groups all together is inappropriate and indicates ignorance of the nature of modern Judaism. It may indicate the outdated "racialist" view and the frequent accompanying negative bias. This racial element does seem to be part of some occult belief systems. That is ironic, since the ultra-orthodox Hasidics are the ones who created and have explored the topic of Qabalah, so heavily cited by occultists.

For the benefit of that last poster, looking at an online "wiki" hardly counts as research with numbers reliable enough to "add up" to get the total number of victims, especially since all numbers are estimates. And I fail to see how what "intuitively" does not add up is any sort of counter-argument at all.

I guess I may as well also mention that it is a very emotional topic to talk about "revisionism" and my own struggles with the religious institution I sort of belong within.

3:25 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Josh,

If you keep going, you find the whole thing is a hologram: there is no documentary or physical evidence of the killing or the killed. Or, if you think about it like you did, it is exposed as utterly fantastic. Think of a single California gas chamber death, or a modern cremation, for comparison. When the Nazis pulled out of Auschwitz most of the prisoners chose to go with them instead of waiting for the Russians. Elie Wiesel went with the Nazi guards and he never mentioned gas chambers in his auotobiography after the war.

3:27 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

ObieJargon,

We've all heard that old record before, over and over ad nauseam. Nobody disputes the deportations, it's what happened at the other end that is not clear. No evidence except imaginative claimed "eyewitness" accounts, mostly from long after the war and with compensation payable. "There's no business like Shoah business". Try this account of Jews in wartime Europe from the Encyclopaedia Britannica of 1956 by a Jewish scholar, Jacob Marcus:

"In order to effect a solution of the Jewish problem in line with their theories, the Nazis carried out a series of expulsions and deportations of Jews, mostly of original east European stock, from nearly all European states.

Men frequently separated from their wives, and others from children, were sent by the thousands to Poland and western Russia. There they were put into concentration camps, or huge reservations, or sent into the swamps, or out on the roads, into labour gangs. Large numbers perished under the inhuman conditions which they labored. While every other large Jewish center was being embroiled in war, American Jewry was gradually assuming a position of leadership in world Jewry." [found in the 1947, 52 and 56 editions]

Jewish historians like Deborah Lipstadt are back-pedalling and making downward revisions all the time, by the way. That's your problem with evidence and history: it's about proving, not believing.

3:48 PM  
Anonymous Josh said...

I stand by my questions and my "do the math" conclusions. I find it logistically very difficult to kill 1,000 people a day every day for 5 years. Intuitively, it doesn't make sense that these camps killed those many people.

And what of Eisenhower, et al not making mention of it?

Where did the 6,000,000 number come from? Out of thin air?

I'm not a revisionist, just someone with questions.

Please don't anyone label me anti-semitic because you don't know my background.

As far as that tongue-in-cheek "heresy" comment goes, well, you can round me up and detain me. Put me in one of those FEMA camps while you are at it. They were built by Halliburton, you know, and you can be sure they used the cheapest schlockiest materials to underprice their competitors to get the contract. Escaping one of those camps should be easy!

5:51 PM  
Blogger RoadsEnd said...

Poisoning the well ...

The whole German/Jewish dialectic was chosen years before the "Radio Experiment" of Hitlerian Germany.

It's a "hatrack" something to hang hat's of dissension upon.

The whole idea of getting people into debating the number of deaths and then the next step of denial of the whole murderous scheme is rhetorically telling

It's an visceral directed op, run by anonymouses leaving "turds" to stink up the place, and drive people away from the board.

Peace,
Om
Kris Millegan

To Josh--

http://nizkor.org/qar-complete.cgi
{Many links at site)

The Pamphlet

The Institute for Historical Review, or IHR, publishes many small pamphlets designed to misinform people about the Holocaust. One of the most-persistent has been a pamphlet called "66 Questions And Answers About the Holocaust," or simply "66 Q&A."

This pamphlet neatly summarizes many of the most common arguments used by Holocaust-deniers. Refuting these 66 claims strikes directly at the core of Holocaust-denial.

[snip]

1. What proof exists that the Nazis practiced genocide or deliberately killed six million Jews?

The IHR says (original, Samisdat, and revised versions combined):

None. The only evidence is the postwar testimony of individual "survivors." This testimony is contradictory, and no "survivor" claims to have actually witnessed any gassing. There are no contemporaneous documents and no hard evidence whatsoever: no mounds of ashes, no crematoria capable of disposing of millions of corpses, no piles of clothes, no human soap, no lamp shades made of human skin, no records, no credible demographic statistics.

Nizkor replies:

Lie piled upon lie, with not a shred of proof.

This is as good a place as any to present some detailed evidence which is consistently ignored, as a sort of primer on Holocaust denial. It will make this reply much longer than the other sixty-five, but perhaps the reader will understand the necessity for this.

Let's look at their claims one at a time:

# Supposedly the only evidence, "the postwar testimony of individual survivors."

First of all, consider the implicit conspiracy theory. Notice how the testimony of every single inmate of every Nazi camp is automatically dismissed as unconvincing. This total dismissal of inmates' testimony, along with the equally-total dismissal of the Nazis' own testimony (!), is the largest unspoken assumption of Holocaust-denial.

This assumption, which is not often spelled out, is that the attempted Jewish genocide never took place, but rather that a secret conspiracy of Jews, starting around 1941, planted and forged myriad documents to prove that it did; then, after the war, they rounded up all the camp survivors and told them what to say.

The conspirators also supposedly managed to torture hundreds of key Nazis into confessing to crimes which they never committed, or into framing their fellow Nazis for those crimes, and to plant hundreds of documents in Nazi files which were never discovered until after the war, and only then, in many cases, by sheer luck. Goebbels' diary, for example, was barely rescued from being sold as 7,000 pages of scrap paper, but buried in the scattered manuscript were several telling entries (as translated in Lochner, The Goebbels Diaries, 1948, pp. 86, 147-148):

February 14, 1942: The Führer once again expressed his determination to clean up the Jews in Europe pitilessly. There must be no squeamish sentimentalism about it. The Jews have deserved the catastrophe that has now overtaken them. Their destruction will go hand in hand with the destruction of our enemies. We must hasten this process with cold ruthlessness.

March 27, 1942: The procedure is a pretty barbaric one and not to be described here more definitely. Not much will remain of the Jews. On the whole it can be said that about 60 per cent of them will have to be liquidated whereas only 40 per cent can be used for forced labor.

Michael Shermer has pointed out that the Nazis' own estimate of the number of European Jews was eleven million, and sixty percent of eleven million is 6.6 million. This is fairly close to the actual figure. (Actually, forty percent was a serious overestimate of the survival rate of Jews who were captured, but there were many Jews who escaped.)

In any case, most of the diary is quite mundane, and interesting only to historians. Did the supposed Jewish conspiracy forge seven thousand pages to insert just a few lines? How did they manage to know Goebbels' affairs intimately enough to avoid contradictions, e.g. putting him or his associates in the wrong city at the wrong date?

As even the revisionist David Cole has admitted, revisionists have yet to provide a satisfactory explanation of this document.

Regarding postwar testimony from Nazis, were they all tortured into confessing to heinous crimes which they supposedly did not commit? This might be believable if only a few Nazis were captured after the war, or maybe if some had courageously stood up in court and shouted to the world about the supposed attempt to silence them. But hundreds testified regarding the Holocaust, in trials dating from late 1945 until the 1960s. (For example, see Böck, Hofmann, Hössler, Klein, Münch, and Stark.)

Many of these Nazis testified as witnesses and were not accused of crimes. What was the basis for their supposed coercion?

Many of these trials were in German courts. Did the Germans torture their own countrymen? Well, Holocaust-deniers sometimes claim that the Jews have secretly infiltrated the German government and control everything about it. They prefer not to talk too much about this theory, however, because it is clearly on the lunatic fringe.

The main point is that not one of these supposed torture victims -- in fifty years, not one -- has come forth to support the claim that testimony was coerced.

On the contrary, confirmation and reconfirmation of their testimony has continued across the years. What coercion could have convinced Judge Konrad Morgen to testify to the crimes he witnessed at the International Nuremberg Trial in 1946, where he was not accused of any crime? And to later testify at the Auschwitz trial at Frankfurt, Germany, in 1963-65? What coercion was applied to SS Doctor Johann Kremer to make him testify in his own defense in 1947, and then, after having been convicted in both Poland and Germany, emerge after his release to testify again as a witness at the Frankfurt trial? What coercion was applied to Böck, Gerhard Hess, Hölblinger, Storch, and Wiebeck, all former SS men, all witnesses at Frankfurt, none accused of any crime there?

Holocaust-deniers point to small discrepancies in testimonies to try to discredit them. The assumption, unstated, is that the reader will accept minor discrepancies as evidence of a vast, over-reaching Jewish conspiracy. This is clearly ludicrous.

In fact, the discrepancies and minor errors in detail argue against, not for, the conspiracy theory. Why would the conspirators have given different information to different Nazis? In fact, if all the testimonies, from the Nazis' to the inmates', sounded too similar, it is certain that the Holocaust-deniers would cite that as evidence of a conspiracy.

What supposed coercion could reach across four decades, to force former SS-Untersturmführer Dr. Hans Münch to give an interview, against the will of his family, on Swedish television? In the 1981 interview, he talked about Auschwitz:

Interviewer: Isn't the ideology of extermination contrary to a doctor's ethical values?

Münch: Yes, absolutely. There is no discussion. But I lived in that environment, and I tried in every possible way to avoid accepting it, but I had to live with it. What else could I have done? And I wasn't confronted with it directly until the order came that I and my superior and another one had to take part in the exterminations since the camp's doctors were overloaded and couldn't cope with it.

Interviewer: I must ask something. Doubters claim that "special treatment" could mean anything. It didn't have to be extermination.

Münch: "Special treatment" in the terminology of the concentration camp means physical extermination. If it was a question of more than a few people, where nothing else than gassing them was worthwhile, they were gassed.

Interviewer: "Special treatment" was gassing?

Münch: Yes, absolutely.

And what supposed coercion could reach across four decades, to force former SS-Unterscharführer Franz Suchomel into giving an interview for the film Shoah? Speaking under (false) promises of anonymity, he told of the crimes committed at the Treblinka death camp (from the book Shoah, Claude Lanzmann, 1985, p. 54):

Interviewer: You are a very important eyewitness, and you can explain what Treblinka was.

Suchomel: But don't use my name.

Interviewer: No, I promised. All right, you've arrived at Treblinka.

Suchomel: So Stadie, the sarge, showed us the camps from end to end. Just as we went by, they were opening the gas-chamber doors, and people fell out like potatoes. Naturally, that horrified and appalled us. We went back and sat down on our suitcases and cried like old women.

Each day one hundred Jews were chosen to drag the corpses to the mass graves. In the evening the Ukrainians drove those Jews into the gas chambers or shot them. Every day!

Ask the deniers why they shrug off the testimony of Franz Suchomel. Greg Raven will tell you that "it is not evidence...bring me some evidence, please." Others will tell you that Suchomel and Münch were crazy, or hallucinating, or fantasizing.

But the fantasy is obviously in the minds of those who choose to ignore the mass of evidence and believe instead in a hypothetical conspiracy, supported by nothing but their imaginations.

That total lack of evidence is why the "conspiracy assumption" almost always remains an unspoken assumption. To our knowledge, there has not been one single solitary "revisionist" paper, article, speech, pamphlet, book, audiotape, videotape, or newsletter which provides any details about this supposed Jewish/Zionist conspiracy which did all the dirty work. Not one.

At best, the denial literature makes veiled references to the World Jewish Congress perpetuating a "hoax" (in Butz, 1976) -- no details are provided. Yet the entire case of Holocaust-denial rests on this supposed conspiracy.

As for the testimony of the survivors, which the "revisionists" claim is the only evidence, there are indeed numerous testimonies to gassings and other forms of atrocities, from Jewish inmates who survived the camps, and also from other inmates like POWs. Many of the prisoners that testified about the gassing are not Jewish, of course. Look for instance at the testimony of Polish officer Zenon Rozansky about the first homicidal gassing in Auschwitz, in which 850 Russian POWs were gassed to death, in Reitlinger, The Final Solution, p. 154:

Those who were propped against the door leant with a curious stiffness and then fell right at our feet, striking their faces hard against the concrete floor. Corpses! Corpses standing bolt upright and filling the entire corridor of the bunker, till they were packed so tight that it was impossible for more to fall.

Which of the "revisionists" will deny this? Which of them was there? Which of them has the authority to tell Rozansky what he did or did not see?

The statement that "no 'survivor' claims to have actually witnessed any gassing" is clearly false; this was changed to "few survivors" in later versions, which is close to the truth.

But we do not need to rely solely on testimony, from the survivors, Nazis, or otherwise. Many wartime documents, not postwar descriptions, specifically regarding gassings and other atrocities, were seized by the U.S. armed forces. Most are in the National Archives in Washington, D.C.; some are in Germany.

Regarding the gassing vans, precursors to the gas chambers, we find, for example, a top secret document from SS Untersturmführer Becker to SS Obersturmbannführer Rauff (from Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression, 1946, Vol. I, pp. 999-1001):

If it has rained for instance for only one half hour, the van cannot be used because it simply skids away. It can only be used in absolutely dry weather. It is only a question now whether the van can only be used standing at the place of execution. First the van has to be brought to that place, which is possible only in good weather. ...

The application of gas usually is not undertaken correctly. In order to come to an end as fast as possible, the driver presses the accelerator to the fullest extent. By doing that the persons to be executed suffer death from suffocation and not death by dozing off as was planned. My directions now have proved that by correct adjustment of the levers death comes faster and the prisoners fall asleep peacefully.

And Just wrote of the gas vans to Rauff, on June 5, 1942, in a letter marked both "top secret" and "only copy". This is a horrific masterpiece of Nazi double-talk, referring to killing as "processing" and the victims as "subjects" and "the load." (See Kogon, Nazi Mass Murder, 1993, pp. 228-235.)

Since December 1941, for example, 97,000 were processed using three vans, without any faults occurring in the vehicles. ...

The normal capacity of the vans is nine to ten per square meter. The capacity of the larger special Saurer vans is not so great. The problem is not one of overloading but of off-road maneuverability on all terrains, which is severely diminished in this van. It would appear that a reduction in the cargo area is necessary. This can be achieved by shortening the compartment by about one meter. The problem cannot be solved by merely reducing the number of subject treated, as has been done so far. For in this case a longer running time is required, as the empty space also needs to be filled with CO [the poison exhaust gas]. ...

Greater protection is needed for the lighting system. The grille should cover the lamps high enough up to make it impossible to break the bulbs. It seems that these lamps are hardly ever turned on, so the users have suggested that they could be done away with. Experience shows, however, that when the back door is closed and it gets dark inside, the load pushes hard against the door. The reason for this is that when it becomes dark inside, the load rushes toward what little light remains. This hampers the locking of the door. It has also been noticed that the noise provoked by the locking of the door is linked to the fear aroused by the darkness.

Slip-ups occurred in written correspondence regarding the gas chambers themselves, some of which, fortunately, escaped destruction and were found after the war. A memo written to SS man Karl Bischoff on November 27, 1942 describes the gas chamber in Krema II not with the usual mundane name of "Leichenkeller," but rather as the "Sonderkeller" "special cellar."

And two months later, on January 29, 1943, Bischoff wrote a memo to Kammler, referring to that same chamber as the "Vergasungskeller." (See Gutman, Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp, 1994, pp. 223, 227.) "Vergasungskeller" means exactly what it sounds like: "gassing cellar," an underground gas chamber.

Holocaust-deniers turn to Arthur Butz, who provides a specious explanation for the Vergasungskeller: "Vergasung," he says, cannot refer to killing people with gas, but only to the process of converting a solid or liquid into gas. Therefore, he says the "Vergasungskeller," must have been a special room where the fuel for the Auschwitz ovens was converted into gas -- a "gasification cellar."

There are three problems with this explanation. First, "Vergasung" certainly can refer to killing people with gas; Butz does not speak German and he should not try to lecture about the language. Second, there is no room that could possibly serve this function which Butz describes -- years after writing his book, he admitted this, and helplessly suggested that there might be another building somewhere in the camp that might house a gasification cellar. Third, the type of oven used at Auschwitz did not require any gasification process! The ovens burned solid fuel. (See Gutman, op. cit., pp. 184-193.)

So what does the term "gassing cellar" refer to? Holocaust-deniers have yet to offer any believable explanation.

An inventory, again captured after the war, revealed fourteen showerheads and one gas-tight door listed for the gas chamber in Krema III. Holocaust-deniers claim that room was a morgue; they do not offer to explain what use a morgue has for showerheads and a gas-tight door. (See a photograph of the document, or Pressac, Auschwitz: Technique and Operation, 1989, pp. 231, 438.)

A memo from the Auschwitz construction office, dated March 31, 1943, says (Hilberg, Documents of Destruction, 1971, pp. 207-208):

We take this occasion to refer to another order of March 6, 1943, for the delivery of a gas door 100/192 for Leichenkeller 1 of Krema III, Bw 30a, which is to be built in the manner and according to the same measure as the cellar door of the opposite Krema II, with peep hole of double 8 millimeter glass encased in rubber. This order is to be viewed as especially urgent....

Why would morgues have urgently needed peepholes made out of a double layer of third-of-an-inch-thick glass?

The question of whether it can be proved that the cyanide gas was used in the Auschwitz gas chambers has intruiged the deniers. Their much-heralded Leuchter Report, for example, expends a great deal of effort on the question of whether traces of cyanide residue remain there today. But we do not need to look for chemical traces to confirm cyanide use (Gutman, op. cit., p. 229):

Letters and telegrams exchanged on February 11 and 12 [1943] between the Zentralbauleitung and Topf mention a wooden blower for Leichenkeller 1. This reference confirms the use of the morgue as a gas chamber: Bischoff and Prüfer thought that the extraction of air mixed with concentrated prussic acid [cyanide] (20 g per cu m) required a noncorroding ventilator.

Bischoff and Prüfer turned out to be wrong, and a metal fan ended up working acceptably well. But the fact that they thought it necessary demonstrates that cyanide was to be routinely used in the rooms which deniers call morgues. (Cyanide is useless for disinfecting morgues, as it does not kill bacteria.)

Other captured documents, even if they don't refer directly to some part of the extermination process, refer to it by implication. A captured memo to SS-Brigadeführer Kammler reveals that the expected incineration capacity of the Auschwitz ovens was a combined total of 4,756 corpses per day (see a photograph of the document or Kogon, op. cit., p. 157).

Deniers often claim that this total could not be achieved in practice (see question 45). That's not the point. These crematoria were carefully designed, in 1942, to have sufficient capacity to dispose of 140,000 corpses per month -- in a camp that housed only 125,000. We can conclude that massive deaths were predicted, indeed planned-for, as early as mid-1942. A camp designed to incinerate its full capacity of inmates every four weeks is not merely a detention center.

Finally, apart from the abundant testimonies, confessions, and physical evidence of the extermination process, there is certainly no want of evidence of the Nazis' intentions and plans.

Here are just a few examples. Hans Frank's diary (from Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression, 1946, Vol. I, pp. 992, 994):

But what should be done with the Jews? Do you think they will be settled down in the 'Ostland' [eastern territories], in [resettlement] villages? This is what we were told in Berlin: Why all this bother? We can do nothing with them either in the 'Ostland' nor in the 'Reichkommissariat.' So liquidate them yourself.

Gentlemen, I must ask you to rid yourself of all feeling of pity. We must annihilate the Jews, wherever we find them and wherever it is possible, in order to maintain the structure of the Reich as a whole. ...

We cannot shoot or poison these 3,500,000 Jews, but we shall nevertheless be able to take measures, which will lead, somehow, to their annihilation....

That we sentence 1,200,000 Jews to die of hunger should be noted only marginally.

Himmler's speech at Posen on October 4, 1943 was captured on audiotape (Trial of the Major War Criminals, 1948, Vol. XXIX, p. 145, trans. by current author):

I refer now to the evacuation of the Jews, the extermination of the Jewish people. This is one of those things that is easily said: "the Jewish people are being exterminated," says every Party member, "quite true, it's part of our plans, the elimination of the Jews, extermination, we're doing it."

The extermination effort was even mentioned in at least one official Nazi court verdict. In May 1943, a Munich court wrote in its decision against SS-Untersturmführer Max Taubner that:

The accused shall not be punished because of the actions against the Jews as such. The Jews have to be exterminated and none of the Jews that were killed is any great loss. Although the accused should have recognized that the extermination of the Jews was the duty of Kommandos which were set up especially for this purpose, he should be excused for considering himself to have the authority to take part in the extermination of Jewry himself.

And Hitler spoke quite clearly in public on no fewer than three occasions. On January 30, 1939, seven months before Germany invaded Poland, he spoke publicly to the Reichstag (transcribed from Skeptic magazine, Vol. 2, No. 4, p. 50):

Today I want to be a prophet once more: if international finance Jewry inside and outside of Europe should succeed once more in plunging nations into another world war, the consequence will not be the Bolshevation of the earth and thereby the victory of Jewry, but the annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe.

By the way, this last phrase is, in German, "die Vernichtung der jüdischen Rasse in Europa," which German-speakers will realize is quite unambiguous.

In September, 1942:

...if Jewry should plot another world war in order to exterminate the Aryan peoples in Europe, it would not be the Aryan people which would be exterminated but Jewry...

On November 8, 1942:

You will recall the session of the Reichstag during which I declared: if Jewry should imagine that it could bring about an international world war to exterminate the European races, the result will not be the extermination of the European races, but the extermination of Jewry in Europe. People always laughed about me as a prophet. Of those who laughed then, countless numbers no longer laugh today, and those who still laugh now will perhaps no longer laugh a short time from now.

There are many other examples of documents and testimonies that could be presented.

Keep in mind that the IHR's answer to "what proof exists?" is "none." It has certainly been demonstrated already that this pat answer is totally dishonest. And this is the main point we wish to communicate: that Holocaust-denial is dishonest.

We continue by analyzing the remaining, more-specific, claims about what evidence supposedly does not exist.

# "No mounds of ashes" is an internal contradiction. In an article in the journal published by the same IHR that publishes these Q&A, the Journal's editor reported that a Polish commission in 1946 found human ash at the Treblinka death camp to a depth of over twenty feet. This article is available on The IHR's web site.

(Apparently some survivors claimed that the corpses were always thoroughly cremated. Because uncremated human remains were mixed with the ash, the editor suggested that the testimonies were false. Amazingly, he had no comment on how a twenty-foot layer of human ashes came to be there in the first place. Perhaps he felt that to be unworthy of mention.)

There are also piles of ashes at Maidanek. At Auschwitz-Birkenau, ashes from cremated corpses were dumped into the rivers and swamps surrounding the camp, and used as fertilizer for nearby farmers' fields.

# "No crematoria" capable of disposing of millions of corpses? Absolutely false, the crematoria were more than capable of the job, according to both the Nazis' own internal memos and the testimony of survivors. Holocaust-deniers deliberately confuse civilian, funeral-home crematoria with the huge industrial ovens of the death camps. This is discussed in much detail in the replies to questions 42 and 45.

# "No piles of clothes"? Apparently, the IHR considers piles of clothes to be "hard evidence"! This is strange, because they do not deny the other sorts of piles found at Nazi camps: piles of eyeglasses, piles of shoes (at Auschwitz, Belzec, and Maidanek), piles of gold teeth, piles of burned corpses, piles of unburned corpses, piles of artificial limbs (see Swiebocka, Auschwitz: A History in Photographs, 1993, p. 210), piles of human hair (ibid, p. 211), piles of ransacked luggage (ibid, p. 213), piles of shaving-brushes (ibid, p. 215), piles of combs (ibid), piles of pots and pans (ibid), and yes, even the piles of clothes (ibid, p. 214) that the IHR claims do not exist.

Perhaps the authors of the 66 Q&A realized that it was dangerous for them to admit that these piles were hard evidence, because then they would also be forced to admit a number of other things as "hard evidence." Perhaps this is why they removed this phrase from the revised 66 Q&A.

If items were not generally found in mass quantities, it is only because the Nazis distributed them to the German population. A memo on this was captured, revealing that they even redistributed women's underwear.

# "No human soap"? This is true, but misleading. Though there is some evidence that soap was made from corpses on a very limited experimental scale, the rumored "mass production" was never done, and no soap made from human corpses is known to exist. However, there is sworn testimony, never refuted, from British POWs and a German army official, stating that soap experiments were performed, and the recipe for the soap was captured by the Allies. To state flatly that the Nazis did not make soap from human beings is incorrect.

# "No lamp shades made of human skin?" False -- lampshades and other human-skin "ornaments" were introduced as evidence in both trials of Ilse Koch, and were shown to a U.S. Senate investigation committee in the late 40s. We know they were made of human skin because they bore tattoos, and because a microscopic forensic analysis of the items was performed. (A detailed page on this is being prepared.)

# "No records"? This is nonsense (which may explain why this claim was removed from the "revised" versions of the 66 Q&A). True, extermination by gassing was always referred to with code-words, and those victims who arrived at death camps only to be immediately gassed were not recorded in any books. But there are slip-ups in the code-word usage that reveal the true meanings, as already described. There are inventories and requisitions for the Krema which reveal items anomalous with ordinary use but perfect for mass homicidal gassing. There are deportation train records which, pieced together, speak clearly. And so on. Several examples have been given above.

# "No credible demographic statistics"? This is the second internal contradiction -- see question 2 and question 15. The Anglo-American committee who studied the issue estimated the number of Jewish victims at 5.7 million. This was based on population statistics. Here is the exact breakdown, country by country:

Germany 195,000
Austria 53,000
Czechoslovakia 255,000
Denmark 1,500
France 140,000
Belgium 57,000
Luxemburg 3,000
Norway 1,000
Holland 120,000
Italy 20,000
Yugoslavia 64,000
Greece 64,000
Bulgaria 5,000
Rumania 530,000
Hungary 200,000
Poland 3,271,000
USSR 1,050,000
Less dispersed refugees (308,000)
Total number of Jews killed 5,721,500

(This estimate was arrived at using population statistics, and not by adding the number of casualties at each camp. These are also available -- for instance, a separate file with the ruling of a German court regarding the number of victims in Treblinka is available. The SS kept rather accurate records, and many of the documents survived, reinforced by eyewitness accounts).

Some estimates are lower, some are higher, but this is the magnitude in question. In an article in CMU's student newspaper, the head of CMU's History Department, Peter Stearns, is quoted as saying that newly discovered documents -- especially in the former USSR -- indicate that the number of victims is higher than six million. Other historians claim not much over five million. The Encyclopedia of the Holocaust uses 5,596,000 as a minimum and 5,860,000 as a maximum (Gutman, 1990, p. 1799).

# In summary:

"Revisionists" often claim, correctly, that the burden of proof is on historians. The proof, of course, has been a matter of public record since late 1945, and is available in libraries around the world. The burden has been met, many, many times over. You've just seen a brief presentation of some of the highlights of that immense body of proof; much more is readily available.

To even argue that the Holocaust never happened is ludicrous. To claim straight-faced that none of this proof even exists is beyond ludicrous, and it is a clear example of "revisionist" dishonesty.

2. What evidence exists that six million Jews were not killed by the Nazis?

The IHR says:

Extensive forensic, demographic, analytical and comparative evidence demonstrates the impossibility of such a figure. The widely repeated "six million" figure is an irresponsible exaggeration.

Nizkor replies:

First of all: in the answer to this question, they claim to have "extensive evidence" to prove that something did not happen. Yet Holocaust-deniers often claim that they do not have to prove anything because, as they say, "it is impossible to prove a negative." Greg Raven has said this at least twice: once implicitly, and once explicitly:

We also note in passing that they ask me to prove a negative, which is impossible.

It is possible to prove a negative, of course, but since none of the "evidence" is given here, it is impossible to respond definitively to this absurd claim. "Forensic evidence " is probably a reference to the fraudulent "Leuchter Report," of which a detailed analysis has been written.

What is this about "demographic evidence"? Didn't they just say in question 1 that "no credible demographic statistics exist"? Another internal contradiction.

"Analytical and comparative evidence" could mean anything. We invite any "revisionist" to explain what this means and to present some of this evidence, and we promise to address it on this page if they do so.

3. Did Simon Wiesenthal once state in writing that "there were no extermination camps on German soil"?

The IHR says (original):

Yes. In Books and Bookmen, April, 1975 issue. He claims the "gassings" of the Jews took place in Poland.

The IHR says (revised):

Yes. The famous "Nazi hunter" wrote this in Stars and Stripes, Jan. 24, 1993. He also claimed that "gassings" of Jews took place only in Poland.

Nizkor replies:

Wiesenthal's 1975 letter to the editor said:

Because there were no extermination camps on German soil the Neo-Nazis are using this as proof that these crimes did not happen [...]

How ironic that he was not only correct, but that those very words were later misused in the manner he described.

Both answers are correct in themselves: Wiesenthal did indeed indicate in 1975 and in 1993 that there were no extermination camps in what is now Germany. Innocuous as the change seems, it does lead the reader to assume that the most recent statement is some kind of admission that the Holocaust was much more limited than has been maintained and that the truth is finally coming out. Statements like Wiesenthal's are in fact the basis upon which deniers claim that their pressure is forcing the truth out of reluctant historians.

The truth is that historians, and others like Wiesenthal, have attempted repeatedly over the years to dispel several myths about the Holocaust: the mass production of soap made from human fat is a good example.

Another misconception which they have tried to dispel is that the bulk of the extermination of the Jews took place within Germany itself -- or, more properly, within the "Altreich," the prewar boundaries of Germany. While there were indeed gas chambers and homicidal gassings in the Altreich, they were on a much smaller scale than the gassings in the camps in Nazi-occupied Poland, such as Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka, Kulmhof/Chelmno, Maidanek/Majdanek, and Auschwitz-Birkenau. About three million people, almost exclusively Jews, were gassed to death in those camps. Camp gassings in the Altreich probably claimed the lives of only a few thousand people, almost certainly under ten thousand. Aside from "small-scale" gassing in places like Dachau, Gusen, Neuengamme, Sachsenhausen, Stutthof, and Ravensbrück, and Brandenburg, the site of the first gas chamber, it was largely confined to the "euthanasia" program, which did claim the lives of over a hundred thousand people, mostly non-Jews.

The Nazis had at least two good reasons for building the death camps outside of Germany. First, they were easier to conceal from the German people. Given the chaotic wartime conditions in the territory surrounding the Altreich, they were easier to conceal in general. As Richard Brietman pointed out while writing about the so-called "euthanasia" killings:

"It was one thing ... to kill hundreds of thousands of East European Jews on site in the East -- in inaccessible places, with police cordons preventing spectators from attending. It was quite another thing to murder Jews in Germany or Western European countries... "

...The false causes of death reported raised some suspicions, the residents in the vicinity of the gassing centers began to realize what was going on nearby, and other leaks occurred as well. Adverse public reaction and even signs of open protest induced Hitler to shut down the gassing centers ... the euthanasia killings continued in a more decentralized -- and even less noticeable -- fashion. Still, the experience did not generate confidence about the secrecy of killing on a large scale within Germany." ( Breitman, Richard. Official Secrets: What the Nazis Planned, What the British and Americans Knew, New York: Hill & Wang, 1998. pp 69-70)

Second, the vast majority of murdered Jews came from conquered territory to the east and south -- why go to extra trouble to ship them back into Germany? (See the statistics at the end of question 1.)

What is not given any recognition by the deniers is that the latest "admission" by Wiesenthal is exactly what respectable historians have been saying for the past 45 years, starting perhaps with the Munich-based Institute for Contemporary History in 1950. This selectivity amounts to nothing less than lying by omission and innuendo.

4. If Dachau was in Germany and even Simon Wiesenthal says that it was not an extermination camp, why do thousands of veterans in America say that it was an extermination camp?

The IHR says:

Because after the Allies captured Dachau, thousands of G.I.s were led through Dachau and shown buildings alleged to be gas chambers, and because the mass-media widely, but falsely, stated that Dachau was a "gassing" camp.

Nizkor replies:

In the sense that tens of thousands of people were starved to death and sporadically killed in it, yes, Dachau was a death camp. The term "extermination camp" should probably not be applied to Dachau, because that is generally taken to mean one of the large camps in occupied Poland where mass gassings were performed (see question 3).

What is not in question is that the gas chamber did exist. The Allies captured the memo sent from Dr. Sigmund Rascher at Dachau to Himmler, which read (see Kogon et al., Nazi Mass Murder, 1993, p. 202):

As you know, the same facilities [gas chambers] have been built at the Dachau concentration camp as at Linz [Hartheim]. Whereas the "invalid transports" end up in certain chambers anyway, I ask whether we cannot test some of our various combat gases on specific persons who are involved in the action. Up till now there have only been animal tests or accounts of accidental deaths in the manufacture of these gases. Because of this paragraph, I have sent this letter marked "Secret."

An American reporter made a movie showing the gas chamber very soon after the camp's capture, showing how it was labelled "Brausebad" ("showers") despite having no shower facilities.

The question of whether the gas chamber can be proved to have been used has not been definitively answered. Some historians say that there is no question: it was never used. Some say that the question is still open. It comes down to two testimonies: that of a British officer named Payne-Best who says he heard Dr. Rascher speak of gassings, and that of Dr. Franz Blaha, who testified under oath to experimental gassings. For more information, see Kogon et al., op. cit., pp. 202-204, and Blaha's testimony in Trial of the Major War Criminals, 1947, vol. V, pp. 167-199. Dr. Charles Larson, a forensics expert, also examined gassing victims at the camp, saying "only relatively few of the inmates I personally examined at Dachau were murdered in this manner."

Holocaust-deniers, of course, only present the point of view which says that it was never used. They often quote from a 1960 letter written by the director of the Institut für Zeitgeschichte (Institute for Contemporary History), in Munich (see Die Zeit, August 19, 1960, p. 16):

No Gassing in Dachau

Neither in Dachau nor in Bergen-Belsen nor in Buchenwald were Jews or other prisoners gassed.

The letter of course confirms that mass gassing did take place in the larger camps. Holocaust-deniers don't like to mention that part. They also don't like to mention that, since 1960, the Institut has performed more research and has come to a new conclusion. They now say:

...a gas chamber was established [in Dachau] in which...a few experimental gassings were undertaken, as more recent research has confirmed.

Finally, the "mass media," for the most part, states the facts: that Dachau was used for gassing on a very small scale. Whether the term "gassing camp" is appropriate would probably depend on context. If the IHR can present a cite in which a newspaper or magazine has printed an inaccuracy, let them do so. It won't be the first time, nor the last, that something was erroneously printed. If Holocaust-deniers think errors in newspapers help prove that the Holocaust did not occur, they are obviously deluded.

5. Auschwitz was in Poland, not Germany. Is there any proof that gas chambers for the purpose of killing human beings existed at or in Auschwitz?

The IHR says:

No. A reward of $50,000 was offered for such proof, the money being held in trust by a bank, but no one came up with any credible evidence. Auschwitz, captured by the Soviets, was extensively modified after the war and a mortuary was reconstructed to look like a large "gas chamber." It is now a big tourist attraction for the Communist Polish government.

The IHR says (revised):

No. Auschwitz, captured by the Soviets, was modified after the war, and a room was reconstructed to look like a large "gas chamber." After America's leading expert on gas chamber construction and design, Fred Leuchter, examined this and other alleged Auschwitz gassing facilities, he stated that it was an "absurdity" to claim that they were, or could have been, used for executions.

Nizkor replies:

Regarding the $50,000 reward offer: it was paid, to the last cent (actually $90,000), to Mel Mermelstein, an Auschwitz survivor who took the IHR to court. Here is the statement made by the judge:

The Honorable Thomas T. Johnson, on October 9, 1981, took judicial notice as follows:

Under Evidence Code Section 452(h), this court does take judicial notice of the fact that Jews were gassed to death at the Auschwitz Concentration Camp in Poland during the summer of 1944

and

It just simply is a fact that falls within the definition of Evidence Code Section 452(h). It is not reasonably subject to dispute. And it is capable of immediate and accurate determination by resort to sources of reasonably indisputable accuracy. It is simply a fact.

The IHR complains that they were not given a chance to dispute this fact, but then the American court system is not meant to be a place for people to try to prove crackpot theories. No "credible evidence" was produced because there was no call for it -- a courtroom is not the place to rehash the work of historians over the last half-century.

[much more at website]

6:14 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

How about answering the questions Josh asked? We've all heard your record before.

As you are so knowlegeable, try a few more: Are you aware of any fraudulent "death camp" or "Holocaust" memoirs by people who claimed to be survivors? Jerzy Kosinski is a start.Can you list the other methods of mass exterminations the Nazis were accused of using during the War by "survivors" and "eyewitnesses"?
Electricity, steam, industrial hammer-blows perhaps? How many of those Nazi "confession" testimonies were the products of torture? How many were copping a plea?

Any answers about the nature of the evidence you're probably not so confident about? One suspects not. These questions are heresy.

6:38 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"The Honorable Thomas T. Johnson, on October 9, 1981, took judicial notice as follows:"

Yes, but an American judge is simply an American lawyer in a silly costume. It has been scientifically proven that the American lawyer is the lowest form of life ever to appear on planet earth.

Kris Milligan is an occult obsessed simpleton of CIA drugs noteriety.

David Irving is a flawed genius but he's smarter than any American who has ever lived with the possible exception of Bobby Dylan, Paul Simon and a couple of others of that ilk.

Yes, Dylan and Simon are Jews.

6:59 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Josh,

Here are 6 million for you. Same place, same people only 25 years earlier. Raised a lot of money from generous Americans.

"From across the sea, six million men and women call to us for help ... six million human beings. ... Six million men and women are dying ... in the threatened holocaust of human life ... six million famished men and women. Six million men and women are dying" -- Martin H. Glynn, Governor of New York, 10/31/1919

7:16 PM  
Anonymous Josh said...

Gees, who would have thought a simple question revolving around math would generate all this...

7:16 PM  
Blogger RoadsEnd said...

http://www.davidirving.8m.com/

Suffering Fools Gladly?
David Irving & Revisionism





David Irving



by Dr. Karl Kolcheck

An aging David Irving, who has begun to look more and more like a demented Rudolf Hess with lantern jaw and sunken eyes, was once considered the enfant terrible of the world of historical writers.

Now, he is merely the enfant, having slipped into almost total obscurity. This diminution of public attention is highly distressing to Irving, the victim of a deprived, fatherless childhood, who lusts after public attention like a hart panteth after water but in his case, the well has run dry.

His early books such as the "Destruction of Dresden," first published in 1963, were well-researched and crafted but the decline set in early and progressed to the terminal state, an awful biography of Hitler's propaganda minister, Josef Goebbels, published in 1996. Based to a very large degree on completely fictitious documentation prepared by the former Soviet KGB as political disinformation, this book is full of pointless anecdotes, sniggering sexual innuendo and leaves an objective reader with the distinct feeling that the book should have been written in the sort of soft crayon supplied to therapy patients in locked wards.

Although Irving has written, co-authored or translated, thirty-odd books, the great majority of them have the greatest overall similarity to a meringue; there is bulk but no substance.

This plenitude of books must be viewed by their owners as being of great value because they are so seldom touched.

A fair number of Irving's works could have been found, in palmier days, in many major, and some minor, public and academic libraries but as he has diminished in an accelerated fashion, these books have been removed from the shelves in increasing numbers.

Their author attributes this to the underhanded work of malicious Jewish groups but since the index cards have also been removed from the library files, it would be safer to assume that librarians, like so many others, have had quite enough of David Irving.

Irving ascended, or descended (depending entirely upon the view of the reader), from a pro-German writer to a fierce and highly partisan supporter of Adolf Hitler, his acquired and well-worshipped father figure, and an intemperate and completely inaccurate denigrator of his legion of critics.

He had access to the personal diaries of a number of luminaries of the Third Reich and was able to publish a great deal of interesting information that proved to be of limited use to legitimate historians. Unfortunately for students of history, most historical diaries are, more often than not, completely self-serving and Irving's interpretations of them have proved to be equally so.

His major fault as a historical writer, aside from a serious lack of literary style, has been that he wrote to an idea and instead of making a study of authentic documentary, as opposed to anecdotal, sources, he selected material that supported his various ideological thesis and deliberately ignored anything else that might refute the ideas he tried to nourish in the minds of his readers.

Also, Irving has no problem whatsoever in inventing conversations or archival records and putting these spurious evidences into his political screeds with perfect aplomb.

The respected historian John Lukacs has devoted what amounts to more space than he deserves to Irving in his 1997 book, "The Hitler of History." In this work, which is a scholarly and reasonably balanced work on Hitler's place in historical reporting, Lukacs, on pages 229 through 232 points out a small sampling of Irving's deliberate distortions of records and his habit of not identifying any references for important assertions.

In a number of specific cases, it is obvious that Irving has simply invented sources, quotes and other supportive data.

British author and historian Martin Middlebrook has dealt with Irving's failings very clearly in his 1973 book, "The Nuremberg Raid." On pages 293 through 296, Middlebrook dissects a story that Irving reported in his work "And the German Cities Did Not Die-A Documentary Account" published by a small, right wing Swiss house in 1963.

In this book, Irving stated categorically that the Germans had learned in advance about the disastrous 1944 British air raid on Nuremberg in which a very large percentage of the raiding aircraft were lost to German action.

Irving quotes three British airmen, who were prisoners of war in Germany, to the effect that the Germans had prior knowledge of this raid.

Very extensive research on the part of Middlebrook proved that two of the named airmen had no knowledge whatsoever of the statements attributed to them by Irving, in fact flatly denying them, and the third alleged witness simply never existed anywhere except in Irving's imagination.

Another exposition of Irving's literary mendacity can be found in a chapter of a 1994 book entitled "The Churchill Papers" by Alexander Baron, pages 13 through 17.

This study lists a large and significant number of serious errors of fact appearing in Irving's book, "Churchill's War."

In all of his books, Irving consistently misstates or creates facts, invents important dates and proper titles and generally acts as if has never read any of the works in the lengthy bibliographies he always provides as proof of his research.

Probably the worst example of this can be found in "Hitler's War", published in 1977, in which Irving discusses the German Freikorps leader, Albert Leo Schlageter. This man was involved in the Ruhrkampf in the 1920's and was caught and executed by the French in Dusseldorf in 1923.

This part of Irving's reportage is correct.

What is not correct, however, and is an error exposing such a gross unfamiliarity with the subject of German history as to stagger the imagination, is the connected statement that at Schlageter's side on that date was also shot one Andreas Hofer.

As any legitimate scholar of German history will instantly recognize, Hofer was the man who raised the Austrian Tyrol against Napoleon I and was indeed captured and shot by the French but in Mantua, Italy in 1810!

Also in "Hitler's War", on page 260, Irving speaks of a "secret meeting" held at the Kremlin by Josef Stalin on May 5, 1941. Present at this meeting were top members of his government. In this "secret meeting", Irving claims that Stalin outlined his plans to attack Hitler.

This episode was tailor-made by Irving to support his thesis that Hitler did not have any reason to attack Stalin in 1941. Unfortunately, this "secret" speech (and another one on the following evening) was not secret and copies of it survive in the Russian archives.



In spite of the historical importance of this speech, Irving completely neglects to credit or footnote it.

Irving, who once had access to Russian archives, must doubtlessly have seen these files, which are certainly not secret nor permitted to be viewed by only a select few, among whom Irving, by inference, includes himself.

If he ever had such a positive relationship with the Russian archives, it was quickly terminated when the archive authorities discovered that Irving had been systematically pilfering their papers and selling them to document collectors. Irving, in breach of an agreement which he had made and without permission, removed and transported abroad certain microfiches of Goebbels’ diaries, thereby exposing them to a real risk of damage; Judgement, Paragraph 4, section 5. (in Appendix)



The brilliant historian was promptly jailed and, looking like an unshaven and sockless refugee from Bosnia, was physically expelled from the country. Once he had gained the safety of England, one heard his loud cries of Jewish persecution for his heroic activities in search of the Real Truth, as he likes to term his pathological flights of fancy.

This light-fingered, and very profitable lifting, (an original Hitler signature is worth over a thousand dollars on the autograph market) has not been limited to the contents of the Moscow archives but extends to the German Bundesarchiv, the American National Archives and several other prominent repositories of Third Reich documents.

In 1996, Irving attempted to sell a number of valuable papers from this era to Charles Hamilton, New York-based autograph expert and dealer.

Hamilton became suspicious of the origins of these documents and contacted a number of archives. Discovering that most of them had been stolen, Hamilton informed various authorities both in Germany and England.

-Letter from Hamilton to author Gregory Douglas-


From the Desk of Charles Hamilton
Mr. Gregory Douglas
75 West Alexander Ave., No. 10

Merced, CA 95348

Dear Gregory: August 19, 1995



Like to take this opportunity of thanking you for the Christian Wirth signature! This is a scarce one indeed!

The second volume should be out in a few months and I am now working on the third. Since the German Army is one of your specialties, would appreciate anything you might have in the way of signatures.

Just send these to Roger with a copy to me.

I thought I would keep you up to the mark on my problems with David Irving.

He has been sending me quantities of Hitler, and other personalities, papers for sale in my auctions. So far, until this month at least, no problems but Irving is really terrible to deal with. No manners and very rude.

The last batch contained a number of Hitler documents. I had to tell Irving that some were mechanically signed and he became very abusive…as usual.

I had my suspicions about the origins of several of these and found a circular from the former Soviet Archives about stolen Hitler papers. Sure enough, one of these Irving pieces turned out to be stolen.

Well, as you know, I am careful about this so I did some more digging and discovered that all of these Irving pieces had been taken from various archives over the past few years.

I naturally informed Irving about this and he became extremely abusive, telling me that he had no idea (hah!!) that they were stolen (but all seem to have come from archives that he had visited) and then absolutely demanding their immediate return!

When I told him that these pieces were being returned to their legal owners, he really let fly at me! He demanded their return, threatened to actually sue me for stealing his (stolen) documents! He also said that if I ever mentioned his name in connection with all of this, he would also sue me for defamation!

Of course he won’t get them back and he will be damned lucky if he isn’t permanently 86’ed out of these archives.

He has a bad reputation for selling very, very dubious Nazi relics and now this!

I think I made a mistake when I told him off because I said that Pete Stahl knew all about his diddlings and cons. I am sure he now hates Stahl and will now turn on him!

I did blow it but perhaps he will realize that I can no longer have any dealings with him. (J. Costello told me three years ago that Irving was stuffing original papers into his briefcase at the NA.)

Thanks again for your courtesy and I promise not to put your name into this sorry business.

Yours,

Bud/s/










An article appearing in a Toronto, Canada, paper of November 9, 1996 was headed:

AUTHOR'S LONDON HOME RAIDED, bylined by Canadian Press and covered a raid conducted by British police at the London Mayfair apartment of David Irving wherefrom a large number of documents allegedly stolen from British, American and German archives were recovered.

It is also interesting to note that the raid also uncovered a "considerable quantity of documents with Nazi letterheads, a folder containing what appears to be Adolf Hitler's personal note paper, 1940's-era German typewriters, Nazi document stamps and seals and examples of original signatures of prominent Nazi officials."

Perhaps this latter information indicates the source of the oft-repeated comments from outraged, legitimate historians that if Irving can't find a supporting document, he makes one.

Irving has developed an understandably strong interest in the subject of forgeries; loudly criticizing the authenticity of any documents discovered and utilized by any other writer whose work refutes his own pet theories and postulations. In these denunciations, he is shrill, vindictive and completely devoid of substance, lending some credence to the old saying that it is the kicked dog that yelps.

Also in his "Hitler's War", Irving states, on page xxiii, that postwar faked Mussolini diaries were "perpetuated by two Italian nuns." If Irving had taken the trouble to research the subject, he would have found that the forgeries, which fooled all of the recognized experts, had been prepared by an Italian woman named Amalia Panvini and her eighty-four-year old mother.

At the time Irving made this statement, the actual and accurate information on these faked diaries was certainly well-known, especially in England and reference to it can be found in the highly entertaining book by Robert Harris entitled "Selling Hitler" which appeared in 1986. The section on the Panvini fraud can be found on pages 289-290.

This work also contains a number of uncomplimentary commentaries on Irving’s personal behavior in the Hitler diary scandal including references to a £26,000 overdraft on Irving's bank account.

It is an enormous series of errors of omission and commission that render Irving's literary excursions into historical fiction as little more than propaganda pamphlets for the promulgation of the godhead of Adolf Hitler and which have no place in the history section of any library.

A compilation of these errata would fill, at the very least, a small book and are viewed as absolutely appalling by any serious historical researcher, regardless of whatever point of view they espouse.

Most of these exposed errata are of such a nature as to very clearly establish that David Irving is either an ideological fabricator of the worst kind or a grossly incompetent and thoroughly careless researcher.

His desperate craving to be noticed, to be the cynosure of all eyes, once led him to initially attack the authenticity of the Stasi-created "Hitler Diaries" that caused so much amusing havoc in the publishing world in 1983, and then, seeing that the tide appeared to be running in the favor of their authenticity, Irving at once publicly reversed himself and claimed that the terrible fakes were indeed authentic.

According to a British writer, Irving was the first to call the documents fake and the last to authenticate them.

By doing this, Irving certainly obtained the print media attention that he so frantically craves, but in the long view, he forever destroyed the tattered remnants of his professional reputation.

Irving, who once enjoyed considerable fame and recognition in ideological circles, has certainly given validity to the statement by Charles DeGaulle that old age is shipwreck. His extramarital adventures in sundry different arenas cost him his wife and daughters and his increasingly polarized and erratic political views resulted in his being banned from Germany, Canada, Australia, Italy, Russia and New Zealand.

There is a strong, and hopefully successful, movement now in train to have him permanently banned from the United States to which he had fled after losing a libel suit in England and being forced into involuntary bankruptcy. This would leave only France and England for Irving to sport in.

The French, it should be noted, revere the actor Jerry Lewis as a brilliant performer and the British are simply stuck with him.

Being banned from a county in no way discourages Irving. In August of 1998, Irving ostensibly came to America to address what he claimed was a "crowd" of thousands at a meeting in Buffalo, New York. He did indeed travel to Buffalo but instead of addressing the multitude from the balcony of the city hall in emulation of the Führer or the Pope on Easter Sunday, he was quietly driven into Canada via Windsor, and did address a meeting of his Canadian minions in Montreal where he regaled the house with his daring exploits in swimming across a river in the dead of night and escaping Canadian border guards and their snarling dogs.

Since Irving has considerable difficulty getting in and out of his bathtub due to various infirmities, it is doubtful that he could brave more than a tepid wading pool at a day care center.

A head count of the Montreal meeting disclosed that the total number of attendees was one hundred and five, three less than his biggest house in Los Angeles, earlier in the year. At the Los Angeles meeting, held in a motel meeting hall by the Institute for Historical Review, Irving sold an incredible fifteen copies of his book on Goebbels.

The impressively titled Institute was once a reputable historical revisionist entity but was taken over by ideological radicals and now is housed in a rented garage in a run-down commercial area of Costa Mesa, California. They once produced a historical journal with a large circulation, but chronic mismanagement coupled with expensive legal problems has reduced their subscription list to less than two hundred individuals of the type who once worshipped Irving and their slim "Journal" appears about as often as Irving's books after the fall.

One of its two "directors" was once arrested in Germany for defacing a Catholic church with swastikas and now supplements his income by acting as a shift manager for a fast food restaurant in South Central Los Angeles and the other does duty as an automobile mechanic.

A second “director” abruptly resigned his position after posting on his Internet site the stunning revelations that he was a space alien whose parents had been giant turtles.

A third "director" found it necessary to leave the United States and he now lives in a small village in Central Mexico and runs a Flying Saucer Research Center. His own newsletters specialize in well-illustrated articles on anal probes allegedly conducted by small, pale men with large black eyes. The illustrations come from a book on proctology and are not recommended for viewing before eating.

On this particular trip to Los Angeles, as on many others, Irving was accompanied by a very young woman who was passed off as a "research assistant." His antics with her were such that his California host had to remove them from his home and put them up at a local hotel where the bill for three days of frolic amounted to over three thousand dollars.

But still Irving made his presence known to the masses, diminished though their numbers might be.

Where once he addressed large crowds of screaming young former East Germans, his later meetings with his admirers are confined to small rooms with ten or fifteen strange, pale people of the sort who believe in flying saucers and Martin Bormann's survival as a fruit stand operator in Brazil.

When Irving's book on Goebbels was finally rejected by the mainline American publishing company of St. Martin's Press as being absolutely impossible from a literary standpoint, Irving lost his last pretense to being a legitimate historical writer and has been reduced to publishing his own screeds.

However, as long as vanity presses exist, Irving will always be able to pay someone to print his increasingly disoriented books.

These he has dragged around the United States in a rented car, offering them like so many wilted cabbages to the attendees of Nazi relic shows. Even this avenue has finally been closed to Irving who was unceremoniously forbidden entrance to the prestigious American Military Extravaganza show held on a yearly basis in Pennsylvania and he is now totally dependent on occasional sales to those of his devoted followers who are still at liberty or above room temperature.

In England, a photograph was published in a British newspaper in 1984 that showed Irving, in shabby clothes, selling his book, "The Destruction of Dresden" on the sidewalk in front of his former apartment house on Duke Street, a practice that eventually resulted in his being ordered by the police to cease and desist because of a flood of complaints by his neighbors.

At the same time he was proffering his books like overripe melons to disinterested passersby, Irving was also accused by the same police report of making "loud and incoherent" speeches about his persecutions by "powerful Jewish groups."

Stories of persecutions, including mythic break-ins at his flat and public assaults, are part and parcel of Irving's standard speech to his loyalists.

Two examples of Irving's bizarre pursuit of any kind of public attention he can obtain are herein dissected.

According to a number of British newspaper articles, on November 27, 1963, Irving excitedly informed the media that a number of "dangerous men" attempted to smash down the door of his flat and assault him. He claimed he drove them off by physically confronting them.

The actual truth of the matter, in an article in the "Evening Standard" of November 28, 1963, was that three men attempted to gain entrance to Irving's apartment by displaying a stolen government television technician's card. Irving invited them in, called the police and the three men were arrested for "an attempt at burglary."

The police reports indicated that no one attempted to smash down a door. Irving, needless to say, did not chase the putative burglars away, being genuinely terrified of anything over ten years of age and not confined to a wheelchair.

Another incident, often mentioned by Irving in his speeches, is one that occurred in 1992.

Irving claimed that on Sunday, July 12, 1992, he was having lunch at the Richoux restaurant in London with his mistress, one Bente Hogh, then 28, a Danish citizen.

He again called the press and claimed that he was attacked by an irate mob, which he was able to drive off although there were "a large number of them, all armed."

This got into the press the next day but was immediately refuted by the manager of the restaurant, along with other witnesses, who stated that the "armed mob" consisted entirely of a young man having dinner in the expensive Mayfair restaurant. The diner had addressed several negative remarks to Irving on his way out of the building.

Irving, the witnesses stated, immediately jumped up from his table, and his mistress, and ran into the back of the Richoux in what was described in the police report as a state of terror, barricading himself in the men's lavatory. He remained there, inconveniencing other patrons, and wouldn't leave until a waitress gallantly escorted him out of the establishment through the kitchen. By mixing both stories together, it is apparent that Irving covered himself with glory on the one hand and flour on the other.

These entirely fictional accounts harken to the bombast of the Baron von Münchhausen and are designed to impress a shrinking legion of the awestruck with the importance of David Irving.

Irving constantly alludes to death threats, assassination plots, attempted kidnappings, avoided beatings, projected arsons and on and on to impress upon others, having first impressed it upon himself, that he is indeed a man of great importance in the scheme of things and a heroic and dauntless fighter for what he calls "Real Truth."

This small band of fanatical followers continues to fan the dead ashes of his career with worshipful, if badly scrawled, letters, homemade fruitcakes and small checks.

If it were not for this support, Irving and Bente, his young Danish paramour, would have to go onto public assistance.

Of course there is a very strong belief in many circles, some official, that Irving has, in the past, received large amounts of money from various Saudi groups in order to encourage him to harass and embarrass the Jewish community.

Once Irving drove a Rolls Royce but now rides a bicycle or takes public transportation. He lived in an apartment that had one small room set aside as "David Irving's War Room" and the walls of the entire establishment were covered with hundreds of pictures of David Irving in various mock-heroic poses as well as a number of sketches by the late, former Nazi Minister of Armaments, Albert Speer.

This interesting individual spent his own declining years making small ink sketches and passing them off, for considerable sums of money, to true believers and the gullible as "original Hitler artworks."

It seems ironic that Irving, whose career has been based on self-delusion, prevarication and a frenzied campaign of Hitler-worship, would, in the end, have his apartment walls covered in sacred Hitlerian relics that are as fake as his own documentary references.

Miss Hogh was interviewed for an article in the "Spectator" on April 27, 1996, and her comments on her lover are both amusing and instructive.

The reporter, Nicholas Farrell, noted that Irving was constantly complaining in his presence about the fact that his mistress was not keeping the apartment clean and certainly not ironing his shirts. The interview was then moved to a nearby cafe where Ms. Hogh explained that Irving was a very moody, unpredictable man, an egoist who reveled in his disruption of governments and institutions and who boasted often, long and loudly about his many lawsuits against anyone he disliked.

And Irving apparently disliked nearly everyone who did not view him as having a nimbus surrounding his fundament.

The interview also disclosed that Irving was obsessive about his eating habits, demanding that his coffee cup be pre-heated in boiling water, that his beer be served in a frosted glass and that he refused to cook any meals or perform even the most simple of household tasks.

This lack of breeding has manifested itself a number of times over the years when Irving is engaged in speaking engagements in the United States.

He has been known to severely criticize his hosts for not serving him the kind of food he is used to or in neglecting to provide the sort of creature comforts he deems proper to his station in life.

Also, Irving, as a rule, will never thank his hosts for their hospitality.

While Ms Hogh expressed no particular animosity towards Jews, one of Irving's most obsessive topics, she did indicate that both of them shared a hearty and highly vocal detestation of individuals of the colored persuasion who have emigrated to the United Kingdom from its former colonies.

At one time, Irving founded a political party in England, with a mercifully short lifespan, that advocated rounding up all the "Coloured people in England", putting them into detention camps and then deporting them to any country that would accept them.

It is obvious from this that Irving has made excellent use of his research into similar activities during the course of what he firmly believes is his very own Third Reich.

In conclusion, Ms. Hogh also stated that her lover was sadistic towards others, supporting published interviews with Irving himself who stated that he was a very strong believer in corporal punishment.

Irving has always denigrated women, claiming that they were intellectually inferior to men and it has been openly discussed, and published in at least one book, by Alexander Baron, that Irving was homosexual. Given his frenzy to sue anyone who publishes even the mildest criticism of him, it is strange that Irving never filed a suit against Mr. Baron for his published and well-circulated accusations.

While Irving takes every opportunity to criticize women, he very publicly and aggressively drags around an assortment of attractive younger women on his book-selling tours. One of these, a 22-year old Miami waitress named Charlene Touhy, a high school dropout, was introduced as his "research assistant" and shown off to his hosts and admirers in America. Eventually a severely chastened, and apparently well-blistered, Charlene departed the Irving ménage and has made a number of very unkind remarks about the world-renowned writer, calling him, among other printable things, "Mr. Spanky", which needs no further comment.

Mr. Baron has produced no evidence in support of his accusations but there are a series of letters that have surfaced between Irving and someone named Diane Schreiber that might bear on this issue.

Schreiber, a resident of Keene, New Hampshire, ran a Nazi relic emporium called "Brandenburg Militaria" and became closely associated with Irving when he was still permitted to attend the larger militaria shows in America.

After establishing contact in the mid-90s, Schreiber and Irving have kept in constant touch with each other by letter, fax, email as well as personal contact.

The only flaw in what on the surface might appear to be a romantic interlude is that Diane Schreiber is actually one Frank Russo, a fact that becomes quickly obvious to any first-hand observer.

It is doubtful in the extreme that Irving is unaware of the real gender, cross-dressing and other inclinations of his close associate but perhaps their shared interests extend well beyond busts of Josef Goebbels and photo albums of blonde, well-muscled former East German soldiers.

In the years following his decline and fall, Irving has increasingly sought more publicity by filing legal actions against as many people as he can identify as having criticized his inaccuracy, ideological nonsense and general literary buffoonery.

His lawsuits, which he files in his own name, being unable, as he falsely claims, to afford an attorney, are universally thrown out by the courts but only after he has put his victims through great expense and travail.

On July 22, 1994, the "Guardian" published a story about Irving receiving public aid to permit him to file suit against "The Sunday Times." Public aid, in this case, was granted because Irving was believed to be significantly below the poverty level.

How much money Irving has is not known. It is known that he keeps several accounts in Florida banks in which he hides the money he gets from selling books in America. Irving does this to avoid the payment of taxes to the British Inland Revenue and the American IRS.

It is also known that Irving received money from Syrian Arab sources via a bank in Lebanon for promoting Arab points of view and for launching attacks against the Jewish holocaust writers and organizations.

Libel laws in England are very severe and Irving has delusional hopes that his victims will pay him off and avoid the expenses of lawsuits. To date, no one has accommodated him and he has seen case after case thrown out of court by indignant judges as having no merit whatsoever.

There is a provision in British law called barratry, which prohibits the continuous filing of frivolous lawsuits, and the courts in England have repeatedly threatened Irving with this but to no avail.

Irving became outraged by negative comments about his activities by American religious history professor, Deborah Lipstadt, a fanatic holocaust supporter and Jewish equivalent of David Irving, filing a libel suit against the academic and her publishers.

Claiming, in this case rightly, that he had no funds, Irving made the enormous error of appearing as his own attorney in the case while Lipstedt was ably supplied with an the services of an excellent firm of British attorneys, paid for by the Jewish community.

The outcome was never in doubt and Irving lost his case, the judge finding that he was not libeled. The court also confirmed that Irving had stolen valuable documents from the Russian archives in his research into the book on Goebbels.

British law had a provision that a litigating party in a civil action that loses his case is responsible for the legal expenses of the winner. In this case, Irving would owe Lipstedt and her backers over £2,000,000!

In essence, this defeat means that Irving can never publish, or republish, another book because all of his advances and royalties are subject to attachment. His publishers, one must note, are not held to answer for this but any monies intended for the author are now subject to seizure. Not only was Irving forced into bankruptcy by the British courts, his copyrights were seized by the same courts as valuable assets. This means that Irving can no longer publish any of his previous works without them being immediately attached by the Bankruptcy Court Trustees and anyone foolish enough to finance such a publishing venture would lose their investment.

The British firm of bankruptcy referees, Baker-Tilly in London, have possession of all of Irving’s copyrights.

Defeated in his libel action and held accountable for the immense legal fees opposing attorneys ran up, Irving was pushed into bankruptcy by the courts and subsequently fled to the United States where he lives, at last report, in a small rental house on Angela Street in Key West, Florida.

To his few supporters left in the United States, Irving has revealed his secret plan of becoming an American citizen and to achieve this worthy goal, he has gone to ground and refrained from any publishing ventures that would tend to irritate the American authorities.

As Irving's star sinks quickly, and mercifully, from the sight of mortal men, the failed writer had loudly blamed a great catalog of mythic enemies for his eclipse and obliteration.

He sets these earth-shattering truths forth in a newsletter for his true believers called "David Irving's Action Report" which reads like the product of a remedial middle-school class in beginning journalism and contains such weighty statements as..."Today a man gave me a ride in a big car"...and shows a picture of a small child looking at plant life over the caption..."Jessica sees the big leaf." This occasional publication, printed on yellow paper, covers Irving daily activities, his travels, his sore feet, waitresses he has met, the weather in various cities he visits and a plethora of miscellany of endless and boring intensity.

Irving, in his "David Irving Fighting Fund" newsletter, written and mailed from his rented beach cottage in Key West, Florida, his "American Battle Headquarters", produces an endless series of whining requests for funds from the true believers, the "Inner Circle."

Accompanying these tearful entreaties is a colored picture of an aging Irving clutching a very small child. This is presumably his out-of-wedlock daughter but if not, it makes him appear as an aged poster boy for pedophiles.

Irving moans that if he does not pay his rising legal bills, bills incurred solely because of the dismissals by various British courts of his endless and merit less lawsuits, he will be "driven from the battlefield of Real History forever."

This is a consummation devoutly to be wished by anyone with a respect for written history and these feelings include historians of all beliefs and persuasions.

His Action Report has been filled with paranoid mutterings accusing anyone criticizing him with being an agent provocateur, a probable Zionist spy and a functional idiot.

Irving’s newsletters read like the diaries of a paranoid in the final stages of disintegration and he sees the hand of Zionism behind every unpleasant episode in his life, from inflamed piles, electrical problems to his recent eviction from his London apartment for non-payment of rent.

This Action Report, sent to his drooling devotees, was seized upon by the Lipstadt attorneys and used, very tellingly, against Irving in court

Being what he is, Irving has viewed his crushing defeat as a stunning victory and has regaled cheering dozens throughout the United States with such idiotic phrases as “Yes, Irving has scored once more!” and “We certainly showed the other side who was right and who was wrong, didn’t we?”

A person like Irving cannot keep silent for long and from his secret Florida command post, he has issued confidential bulletins to the faithful concerning his latest book that he feels will be his magnum opus. This, he says, will be a scathing investigation into Jewish control of American media and banking institutions and he claims he can show clearly that the American President is a tool of the Israeli Mossad.

As a prelude to his literary and political rebirth, Irving has posted on his internet site, a doctored photograph of concentration camp inmates purported to have been forged by the California-based Simon Wiesenthal Institute.

This picture, which shows a chimney belching smoke in the background, has obviously been doctored but has been in existence long before the Wiesenthal people set up shop and has been used for years as “absolute proof” by the lunatic fringe of forgery concerning allegations of mass murder in the German concentration camps.

In addition to his own lawsuits against others, Irving himself has been sued for copyright violations and accepting moneys given to him by foolish, small publishing houses for books that he has not, never will, or can, write for them.

An article in the "Independent" of February 22, 1994 discussed Irving being thrown in jail in England because of a lawsuit against him for his refusal to return a £50,000 advance from a gullible German publisher.

As Irving loudly claims to have no money, these lawsuits only serve to goad him into greater frenzies of manic activity.

No one seems to be successful in halting his increasingly disordered behavior and the catalog of his baseless charges, complaints, lawsuits and slanders continues unabated.

One of his most insistent, and meglomaniacal, charges is that criticism of him and his scribblings has made him fearful of assassination!

Famous, public figures like presidents and popes are assassinated but the killing of David Irving would be far more in the way of euthanasia than assassination.

Instead of being ashamed of his lunatic antics, Irving boasted of them on what he called his "Inner Circle" website. This site, which he terms "a confidential location which I have created for the inner circle of my supporters at http://www.fpp.co.uk/ Inner/ Circle.html" was a bizarre arena that was a compendium of whining pleas for money, psychotic and badly written attacks on everyone whom Irving sees as his enemy and delusional pages about his importance in the world order.

In addition to his Internet nuisances, Irving produced a pamphlet that was a color copy of a cover from the German "Stern" magazine, an institution that loathes him. This counterfeit printing, which Irving takes very seriously, was filled with pompous pictures of himself and accompanied by a thoroughly faked cover story about his greatness, coupled with a fictitious abject apology from the editorial staff of the German magazine for having defamed him.

There have appeared, from Irving's hand, a number of his printed speeches, which would indicate that he addressed a "Clarendon Club" in London. These speeches appear to be very well received by the audience with a number of textual comments such as "loud laugher" and "wild cheering" from what one would assume were the assembled, aristocratic guests.

Unfortunately, there is no such club. Irving invented it and copyrighted the name so he could use it for his reportage. The speeches are made not to cheering upper class Britons but to a tape recorder in his London flat and the background noises are not loud laughter and wild cheering but the domestic sounds of his housekeeper-cum-mistress vacuuming his carpets and dealing with a screeching child.

As a matter of fact, in reading through these dismal anti-Semitic and anti-black babblings, the observation could well be made that anyone who would either laugh at or wildly cheer the speaker's dismal bigotry would have to be either completely drunk or coked to the gills.

Probably the most illustrative, and bizarre, example of Irving’s eccentricity is to be found in a decades-long feud launched by Irving against a minor military historian, Peter Stahl.

Stahl, who has published a number of books on German military subjects, met with Irving in San Jose, California in June of 1980 at Irving’s request. Stahl was a friend of Dr. Charles Burdick, an academic historian specializing in German military subjects and as Irving was visiting California, Burdick suggested to Irving that perhaps Stahl could assist Irving in locating specific Third Reich documents.

Burdick described Irving to Stahl as “a boorish type” who usually toured with “teenaged tarts” in tow but was a fairly competent researcher in his genre.

During the course of the meeting, Irving informed Stahl that he was looking for any period Third Reich documents that could prove, conclusively, that Adolf Hitler had no knowledge of the Holocaust. He also indicated that he would pay “most generously” if Stahl were able to locate such documents.

In a subsequent conversation with Dr. Burdick, Stahl described the British writer as overbearing and not overly conversant with his subjects. When he informed Burdick of Irving’s request, they both laughed because it was highly doubtful if such documents ever existed, saving in the imagination of David Irving.

Stahl did, however, contact Agnes Peterson of the Hoover Library at Stanford University and when queried about the possible existence of the Hitler-knew-nothing papers in the libraries’ extensive collection, the librarian, like Burdick, laughed and commented that David Irving had been frantically searching for something to exculpate his hero for a number of years and was considered to be a comic figure at the library.

She also advised Stahl to “keep his distance” from the British writer who, Peterson said, was a “terrible, rude pest” and highly demanding.

Shortly after this, Stahl discovered that Peterson was entirely correct in her evaluation of Irving’s persona. No sooner had Irving returned to London than he began to telephone Stahl on a regular basis, usually at four or five in the morning. When advised that the sun had not yet come up in California, Irving always replied with a giggle that it was certainly after lunch in England and then demanded to know what progress Stahl was making in his efforts at locating the desired documents. Since Stahl had quickly abandoned the project as a thoroughgoing waste of his time, he attempted, without any success whatsoever, to convince Irving that he was having no success in his searches.

Irving responded to this by increasing the number of pre-dawn telephone calls until Stahl finally had to resort to leaving the telephone unplugged until a more reasonable hour. This did not deter Irving who merely began his calling regimen very late in the evening instead of early in the morning.

Stahl discovered that Irving was totally incapable of comprehending that no Hitler-exculpating documents had been found and probably never would be. Irving’s response to this information was to become typically, sarcastic and verbally abusive, claiming that Charles Burdick had highly recommended Stahl as a source and urging him to “press forward” in his labors in the vineyards of what Irving called, the “needs of the most important of all modern historians.”

Finally, in a thoroughly misguided effort to silence the annoying Irving, Stahl asked a friend of his who had been a U.S. Army clerk once stationed in Germany, to write up a fake document in the most atrocious German he could muster. This production turned out to be a mythical letter from Heinrich Himmler, head of the SS, to Oswald Pohl, the head of the SS Economics Office. The letter claimed that Hitler had no knowledge of the killing of Jews in the Concentration Camp system and believed that Jews were being sent to these camps to work for the Reich.

The next time Irving called, Stahl gleefully advised Irving that he had indeed found the document Irving was so eager to have. Irving at once demanded that the document be read to him over the phone and when this was done, Stahl said Irving was “absolutely ecstatic” and promised to “liberally reward” Stahl.

A photo copy of the document (see below) was duly sent to a delighted Irving.

As Irving was very conversant with good German, Stahl naturally thought that Irving was being sarcastic with his outlandish praise but several days later, he was called by Dr. Burdick regarding the “remarkable find.” It seems that Irving had telephoned Burdick, bubbling with high spirits, and advised him that the redoubtable Peter Stahl was indeed the expert Burdick has so lavishly praised.



Irving’s “liberal reward” consisted of a wartime propaganda photograph of Field Marshal Erwin Rommel, worth about twenty dollars on the postcard market.

Burdick, quite naturally, wanted to know what this miraculous document consisted of and when Stahl dropped a copy of it off at Burdick’s office at San Jose State University, Burdick laughed so loudly that his secretary rushed in expecting to see her employer in the midst of a seizure.

Not only had Irving swallowed this outrageous practical joke whole, he sent messages around to his supporters, bragging of his earth-shattering find.



June 21, 1980 (From the Diaries of David Irving)
(New Orleans)

[…]
7:25 pm Telephoned Professor Joe Hobbs at Raleigh, North Carolina, and told him about the Peter Stahl document. He was astonished, and full of admiration and congratulations. He compared it with Copernicus and said that the difference was that I was living to see myself vindicated in my lifetime. He added that a few days ago he had seen a picture book on aerial warfare with several pages on the Dresden raids and drew the conclusion that even if I had written only the Dresden book I would have justified my writing activities for my lifetime. he will be in Washington at the end of next week and we will probably meet then.

Irving discusses the fake Himmler letter with one of his colleagues.



Here we have David Irving in all his self-invented glory: "admiration", "congratulations", "justified... for my lifetime", repulsively megalomaniacal, even comparing himself with Copernicus.

In his 1977 book Hitler's War, he first uttered his thesis that Hitler didn't know anything about the final solution against the Jews, which stirred up quite a controversy and was rejected by all reputable historians. In his (probably invented) diary entry from June 21, 1980 and subsequently posted on his website, he openly writes that he was searching for corroborating evidence to support his controversial thesis that Hitler didn't know, a theory that seems to be supported by the above quoted faked Himmler letter.

In other words, this entry suggests that Irving is not adjusting his theories according to the evidence he has at hand, but that he is frantically trying to find evidence to support his theories; that because of his ideological zeal, he turned a blind eye for years to the obvious fact that this "document" was an obvious forgery!

Furthermore, in his invented diary entries, he never mentioned that (and when) he finally received a copy of this "document" (or at least he didn't post it), which he certainly ought to have immediately recognize it as a very crude forgery and to expose the evil man "Peter Stahl" who had cost him so much time and effort and led him on the wrong track.

Such an outrage must have left traces in his alleged diary, certainly producing the longest and most vicious attack on "Peter Stahl" to be found in it, but no such entry exists! (I am sure, though, that after he will have read this, he will invent this entry and post it immediately). It is not before February 15, 1997--17 years after Irving allegedly wrote down the text of this "document"!--that he describes this Himmler "letter" as being "phony." But surprisingly, he does not mention the impossible German language of this forgery.
The text of the joke “Himmler letter”



REICHSFÜHRER SS
1 Berlin SW 11 den 20. Oktober 1943.
Prinz Albrecht Straße 8
Feldkommandostelle

SS Obergruppenführer und General der Waffen SS Oswald Pohl,
SS Wirtschafts- und Verwaltungshauptamt
Berlin Lichterfelde-West
Unter den Eichen 126-135.

Sehr geehrter Herr Obergruppenführer,

Der Reichsleiter Bormann hat mehrmals im letzten Monat eine besondere Interesse an der Degussa-Aktion und Ihr Verhältnis mit dem KZ-System. Wie Sie wissen, eine solche Interesse seinerseits völlig überheblich ist und gefährliche Folgerungen haben können.

Bis jetzt habe ich eine direkte Gegenüberstellung mit dem Reichsleiter vermieden, aber der gebraucht natürlich sein je näheres Verhältnis mit dem Führer um diese Einmischung in KZ-Gelegenheiten zu verlangen. Er hat dem Führer eingeredet, daß er erlernte Arbeiter von KZ-Insassen herausholen kann, und hat sogar den Reichsminister Dr. Speer wenigstens teilweise überzeugt von seine Fähigkeit eine solche Aufgabe durchzusetzen.

Der Führer hat mich gebeten in dieser Sache den Reichsleiter zu assistieren. Ich bin informiert worden, daß eine Kommission von fünf Männern der Bormann-Staffel wird in zwei Wochen das KZ Buchenwald besuchen. Zu dieser Zeit habe ich keine Liste ihrer Namen bekommen; ich habe gehört, daß ein Buchhalter unter ihnen sein wird.

Natürlich kann ich nicht gegen des Führers Wunsches die Erlaubnis für eine Untersuchung verweigern, aber unter keinen Umständen dürfen diese Einmischer die Akten der Degussa-Aktion nachprüfen.

Weiter muß die äußerste Sorgfältigkeit gebt werden, daß irgendeine Nachricht über unsere Methoden in der Endlösung der Judenfrage den Ohren des Reichsleiters nicht gelangt. Als der Führer keine Ahnung dieser Endlösung hat und glaubt, die Juden arbeiten in Übersiedlungsgebieten im Osten, es wäre höchst unratbar, ihn zu dieser Zeit zu informieren, besonders nicht mittels des Reichsleiters, der keinen Anlaß hat, uns sonst zu lieben.

Ich verlasse ganz und gar auf Sie für die Sicherheit dieser Sache und erwarte von Ihnen einen vollen Bericht alsbald die Kommission abreist.

Herzliche Grüsse und Heil Hitler
H. Himmler
Reichsführer


REICHSFÜHRER SS
1 Berlin SW 11 den 20. Oktober 1943.
Prinz Albrecht Straße 8
Feldkommandostelle

SS Obergruppenführer und General der Waffen SS Oswald Pohl,
SS Wirtschafts- und Verwaltungshauptamt
Berlin Lichterfelde-West
Unter den Eichen 126-135.

Sehr geehrter Herr Obergruppenführer,

Der Reichsleiter Bormann hat mehrmals im letzten Monat ein besonderes Interesse an der Degussa-Aktion und ihrem Verhältnis zum KL-System geäußert. Wie Sie wissen, ist ein solche Interesse seinerseits völlig unangebracht und könnte gefährliche Folgen haben.

Bis jetzt habe ich eine direkte Konfrontation mit dem Reichsleiter vermieden, aber er nutzt natürlich sein enges Verhältnis zum Führer, um diese Einmischung in KL-Angelegenheiten zu verlangen. Er hat dem Führer eingeredet, daß er aus den KL-Insassen ausgebildete Arbeiter machen kann, und hat sogar den Reichsminister Dr. Speer wenigstens teilweise von seiner Fähigkeit überzeugt, ein solche Vorhaben umzusetzen.

Der Führer hat mich gebeten, den Reichsleiter in dieser Sache zu unterstützen. Ich bin informiert worden, daß eine Kommission von fünf Männern der Bormann-Staffel in zwei Wochen das KL Buchenwald besuchen wird. Bisher habe ich keine Namensliste bekommen. Ich habe gehört, daß ein Buchhalter unter ihnen sein wird.

Natürlich kann ich die Erlaubnis für eine Untersuchung nicht gegen den Wunsch des Führers verweigern, aber unter keinen Umständen dürfen diese Schnüffler die Akten der Degussa-Aktion prüfen.

Weiterhin muß äußerste sorgfältig darauf geachtet werden, daß keine Nachricht über unsere Methoden bei der Endlösung der Judenfrage dem Reichsleiters zu Ohren kommt. Da der Führer keine Ahnung von der Endlösung hat und glaubt, die Juden arbeiteten in Übersiedlungsgebieten im Osten, wäre es höchst unratsam, ihn jetzt zu informieren, insbesondere nicht über den Reichsleiters, der auch sonst keinen Anlaß hat, uns zu mögen.

Hinsichtlich des sicheren Ablaufs dieser Sache verlasse ich mich ganz und gar auf Sie und erwarte von Ihnen einen vollen Bericht, sobald die Kommission abgereist ist.

Herzliche Grüsse und Heil Hitler
H. Himmler
Reichsführer

Irving's transcript


Proper German



A copy of the actual forgery accepted as genuine by Irving





The forged Himmler letter to Oswald Pohl, Oct. 20, 1943. In contrast to Irving's version, this one has no address and a different opening. (Handwritten additions stem from a German scholar who checked the document's German language for the author after the latter had received it. Click on picture to enlarge.)













There the matter lay. Copies of the ludicrous forgery quickly found their way, via Dr. Burdick, into the hands of personnel at both the U.S. National Archives in Washington as well as the Hoover Library at Stanford University. Irving had become, very privately, an in-house laughingstock.

In August, 1995, thanks to the irate indiscretions of handwriting and document expert Charles Hamilton (reproduced earlier in this study), it came to Irving’s attention that Stahl had accused Irving of theft and peculation.

From all accounts, Irving flew into a monumental rage and at once began to attack Stahl in his little newsletter, accusing him of document forgery (by now Irving had discovered fifteen years later that the “Himmler letter” was a grotesque fake).

Shortly before Irving discovered the terrible joke played on him, author Gregory Douglas published the first of his books based on the wartime and post war career of one Heinrich Müller, once head of Hitler’s feared Gestapo and during the post war period, a CIA employee.

For reasons that no one but a psychiatrist could determine, Irving became convinced that the unfortunate Mr. Douglas was actually the evil Peter Stahl and this resulted in the following alleged letter to the Observer, a British newspaper. For obvious reasons, the paper, if it ever received it, did not print this, being subject to strict British libel laws, but Irving later posted it on his manic website:

Letter to the Editor of The Observer
[Not published]

London, April 23, 1996

Sir,
M AY I comment on Gitta Sereny's entertaining article (Review, Apr.21). She is right in exposing "Gregory Douglas," who has crafted the latest historical forgery -- a book of supposed post-war interrogations of the missing Gestapo chief Heinrich Müller, as Peter Stahl the well-known American counterfeiter and forger. I first encountered this impostor in 1980, eight years before Ms. Sereny, and saw through the documents he was then offering me after making a few simple cross-checks (in that case with the U.S. Military Academy, West Point, and the Library of Congress). I have been warning everybody about him since -- including, it is proper to say, Ms Sereny herself who was at first taken in by Stahl when researching an article about the Nazi mass-murderer Odilo Globocnik which she published in The Independent on Sunday, Jul 19, 1992; it was no doubt thanks to the five page letter which I wrote to that newspaper exposing Stahl that Ms Sereny realised she had been conned.

I also wrote to the German publishers of this latest book, warning them that many of the Müller "1945 interrogations" reproduced almost verbatim chunks of Stahl's 1980 conversations with me (which I had taped); the result was a string of abuse from the publishers accusing me of envy and malice, and they went -- or should I say forged? -- ahead with their publication plans.

[…] Yours faithfully,
David Irving

When this matter was brought to the attention of Mr. Douglas, he replied as follows:



“In the 90s, few people in the British media paid any attention to the rantings of an obviously unbalanced and failing Irving and it is extremely doubtful if he ever wrote such a letter to any newspaper editor, or that he seriously expected them to publish it.

This eruption occurred after Druffel Verlag in Germany had published the first edition of my series on Heinrich Müller. The publisher, Dr.Gert Sudholt, advised me that he had received a frantic letter (mentioned in Irving’s "unpublished letter") from Irving attempting to convince him that he should not publish anything written by myself.

Sudholt, who was well aware that Irving had deliberately and knowingly swindled a number of German publishing houses by taking money for non-existent manuscripts which he was unable to even begin writing due to his failing creative abilities, wrote in response that "…you are obviously envious of the superior writing ability and research skills of Mr. Douglas… I am fully aware of your dishonest activities with other publishing houses in Germany and with the numerous accusations that you have stolen valuable historical documents from private persons and libraries."

And further, Sudholt said, "I have been informed by Herr Genoud of Switzerland that you falsely obtained original Goebbels material from him and then tried to publish it against his express instructions." Sudholt said later that Genoud had stopped the publication, in Germany, of Irving’s work on Goebbels that contained stolen copyrighted material.

Sudholt continued: "And the German publishing house lost much money because of this, money you refused to return to them." Irving had been the target of several lawsuits in England and had been jailed over failure to return a £50,000 advance from a German publisher.

When I brought this documented matter to the attention of the St. Martins Press in New York, to whom Irving was attempting to peddle his book on Goebbels, I was subsequently informed that they refused to publish Irving’s book on Hitler’s Propaganda Minister exactly because of his previous legal problems with German publishers. They were well aware, I was told, that Irving had a "terrible" reputation for fraud and theft in the trade and that they would never publish anything coming from him for fear of lawsuits.

It was also known to them at that time that the so-called "Moscow papers" purported by Irving to be "original Goebbels diaries" and on which his book was based, were, in fact, well-known post war KGB political fakes, designed to embarrass the West German authorities.

I am well aware of the lunatic writings of Irving in his yellow sheet and I wrote to Mr. Stahl to see if perhaps we might jointly sue Irving for libel. We hired a private investigator in England who eventually advised us that Irving was so deeply embroiled in lawsuits and on the verge of bankruptcy that litigating him would be absolutely useless. One would have to wait in a very long line and would have to post a large bond with the courts as foreign litigants.

In the end, it proved to be pointless. It is felt by everyone I have spoken with about the Irving babblings that he has reached the end of his sordid career and attacking him would only be tantamount to kicking a corpse.

The only other reason that I can determine that could possibly explain his prolonged hysteria concerning myself is that some years ago, I bought a collection of the correspondence between Adolf Hitler and Eva Braun.

These letters were in the Schloss Fischhorn collection and came from a Eugene Frankenfeld of Philadelphia. Frankenfeld was a CIC operator that was part of a team that discovered the papers of Hermann Fegelein that were buried at the SS Riding School at Fischhorn run by his brother, Waldemar. Instead of turning these letters, and other important historical papers, in to the U.S. Army authorities, Frankenfeld kept many of them and sold them off to various collectors.

Irving, true to form, erroneously believed these documents to be in the possession of a man named Guiterrez in New Mexico and hounded him for several years in a futile attempt to get them for publication. When he discovered that I had purchased them from another party, he called up the seller and screeched like a petulant florist for nearly an hour.

The seller, a retired U.S. Army officer, told me later with some humor that Irving was probably the most obnoxious individual he had ever encountered, was in all probability a mental case, and wished me well.

It is interesting to observe a constant thread that runs through all of Irving’s hysterical outbursts aimed at me. He consistently accuses me and Peter Stahl, quite falsely and without any evidence to substantiate his claims, of the very things he himself has been repeatedly accused of, and been charged in court for, namely fraud, theft, and dealing in forged and stolen documents and counterfeit Nazi memorabilia

Most sincerely,

Gregory Douglas”

When Douglas published his book, ‘Regicide’ in 2002, Irving again burst forth with more psychotic nonsense:

Irving's grotesque nonsense about Douglas' most recent book "Regicide"

On his website, Irving comments on the author's most recent book "Regicide. The Official Assassination of John F. Kennedy." After reproducing most of the information as posted on the publisher's website, he makes the following, again completely unfounded, and often libelous, comments to various points:


CROWLEY is another alias of Peter Stahl himself. See too Weber's alert about another mysterious alias, Christopher Crowles.

Douglas: Crowley was Assistant Deputy Director of the CIA. Does Irving seriously believe that the author can make the "Washington Post" publish a fake obituary? The author is neither identical with Crowley nor with Crowles. Like the equally eccentric MarcWebber, Irving obviously is completely paranoid when it comes to alleged pen names of the author.

AMAZING, or perhaps not, how the career of "Gregory Douglas" dovetails into and runs parallel with the career of the fraudster and admitted Rodin counterfeiter Peter Stahl. See the July 22, 1981 diary entry describing my first meetings with Stahl, who proudly hinted at his own forging of Rodin statues. He was Peter Stahl then, not Gregory Douglas; [...] As for Odilo Globocnig, see Stahl's involvement in furnishing the fake Globocnig documents to Gitta Sereny. It was not Stahl/Douglas who exposed to the authorities the serious mass theft of files from the Berlin Document Center, but I! Stahl's participation appeared, uh, rather to be on the other side of that particular felony.

Response from Gregory Douglas:
a) Great Historian Irving isn't even capable of spelling Globocnik's name properly.
b) Irving can not even read his own alleged diary, since the entry quoted does not mention that "Stahl" "hinted at his own forging of Rodin statues", but that he talked about "his theory" on existing forgeries.
c) Gitta Sereny has provided no evidence for her claims, and got fired after she published her false, unsubstantiated and libelous article.
d) Again, Irving makes accusations of the author or "Stahl" having been involved in a felony, without any evidence. Fact is that the author worked together with U.S. and German authorities so that those responsible for the BDC-theft ended up in German custody.

"GENUINE?" Ho-ho, in view of the author's track record it seems a highly pertinent question. But note how he cites John Costello as his authority. Costello, a respected if controversial independent historian of the Real History school, had no time for the phoney Peter Stahl, as he frequently told me when he visited me in London. He died tragically, in mid-Atlantic, five years ago and so cannot now expose Stahl for the cynical fraudster that he is.

Douglas: There you have it: Irving isn't interested in "Real History", but in exposing competing authors as "fraudsters".
a) The author has not quoted Costello as an authority for anything.
b) Whether Costello would confirm the author's claim how he got in touch with Crowley, must remain just as open as Irving's claim, Costello allegedly told him repeatedly, he "had no time" for "Stahl".

Photocopies -- a familiar Peter Stahl trick. He knows that makes it harder to test the authenticity of documents (though not impossible). Not many people know that on orders of the US Treasury Department, every modern colour copier sold in the US has a digital dot code built into its dot-matrix system which fingerprints its serial-number, i.e. its identity and exposes would-be counterfeiters. Stahl had nothing whatever to do with exposing the infamous Hitler Diaries in 1983.
Note incidentally his curious preoccupation with typewriter-authenticity. . !

Douglas: The background of this alleged "Stahl trick" is very simple: Irving has a very bad reputation of always wanting to have the originals of all valuable historical documents he can lay his hands on for “publication” under his name. He wants them right away, and refuses to pay for these documents because he thinks, quite in error, that he is the only human being able to comprehend and publish material on the Third Reich. And when demanding that someone possessing documents he needs hand over his very valuable and saleable, originals to Irving, he is extremely rude and aggressive, rarely even thanking the donor. Irving therefore gets turned down regularly as his reputation flees before him, and he never sees the reason for his failure in obtaining publishable material because in his own eyes, Irving is infallible.

Other researchers are more modest or civilized and are either happy to have photocopies, or behave properly and be so doing may even receive the originals.
Also, Irving's story about the digital dot-code of color photocopiers is totally unrelated to anything that matters in this regard. He obviously tries to hide his total lack of evidence for any and all of his claims by trying to impress people with his alleged competence in recognizing forgeries.

Considering that the London Police found Nazi letterheads and typewriters in his apartment, perhaps Irving’s knowledge of forgeries is based on first hand knowledge.

Stahl may have had nothing to do with exposing the Hitler Diaries, but the author did expose Wolfgang Schulze as the brain behind this operation--Konrad Kujau was merely the writer.

Irving, on the other hand, true to form, originally claimed the Hitler Diaries were fakes (because he had not been consulted on the matter) but then, seeing that they were being accepted, at once and in public changed his tune. Now, Irving stated at a well-attended press conference in London, the Diaries were genuine!

Irving was the first person to call the Diaries fake and the last to authenticate them!



Anyone who doubts that David Irving is a sane man needed only visit his "confidential location" to realize that Irving entertains a strong possibility of eventually ending up in a padded room, hopefully sooner rather than later, eating cold beans from a tin tray while someone with a monocle watches him through a peephole in the door.

Instead of a diet of bubble-and-squeak, an appalling cockney dish of fried cabbage and potatoes that Irving regularly indulges in, he will end up gobbling fistfuls of Thorazine and spending his golden years, tightly wrapped in a sheet and immersed in a tub of cold water.

Here he will be able to endlessly chant paragraphs from "Mein Kampf" for the edification of his West Indian ward attendants and thoroughly soil the tub water.

Eventually, as Irving's fortunes descended to somewhat below sea level, he has been reduced to asking his readers to pay the printer's bill for reprints of his "Hitler's War." Investors are assured that they will be given a note personally signed by the Master and will have the rare privilege of purchasing these books (which they have already paid for in advance) at a special low price. It would be entirely up to the investor to sell these charitable productions and since bookstores will no longer handle Irving's works, it is to be assumed that the investor will have to stand on street corners with a pushcart full of Irving's books in order to recoup his investment.

As an added incentive to the tardy of donation, Irving personally offers a color poster of Adolf Hitler and some of his staff. Heavy investors receive one of these rare treasures absolutely free but the general public has to pay for them. Irving's lecture tours are rapidly assuming the general appearance of something produced by the famous P.T. Barnum who, like Irving, believed that there was a sucker born every minute. Perhaps future listeners will be entertained by an Irving-operated Punch and Judy show followed by Irving singing "Knees Up Mother Brown." while strumming a five-string banjo.

Even those who espouse a right-of-center philosophy find him to be an acute embarrassment and spend a good deal of their time in distancing themselves from his shrill, hysteric mouthings.

In point of fact, if Irving wishes to view the enemy who has destroyed him he need only look in the bathroom mirror while shaving.

The British have a long record of cherishing eccentrics and Irving is precisely the kind that ends up giving wild and emotional public speeches about his persecution by mysterious Jewish groups, speeches that would be filled with dramatic, Hitlerian gestures and what he considers biting sarcasm and wit.

These speeches are not to crowds of cheering, teen-aged neo-Nazis but to an audience composed of one small child engaged in picking his nose and a pensioner asleep on the same bench at London's famed Hyde Park corner. Here he can join legions of other eccentrics who daily fulminate on Global Warming, Scientology and Martians who send radio messages to the select via their dental fillings.

Instead of the cheers of hundreds, the only noises that now greet Irving's rants are the hootings of passing police vehicles and the rude, but not entirely unfitting, sounds emitted by a flatulent dog off to one side, and hopefully, downwind.

Should Irving, by some very remote chance, escape permanent residence in an asylum, and as his Inner Circle of admirers diminishes due to death or confinement, and the loss of his copyrights has frightened off putative publishers, he will quite predictably end his career talking to himself in public transportation and writing long, rambling screeds, dealing in the main with the Passion of David Irving, incoherent mumblings that the local newspapers will soon cease to publish.

Finally, he will burst a blood vessel when he tries to find a rare, unautographed copy of one of his earlier books in a second hand book store in Cincinnati, Ohio and hears a clerk say, "David Who?"

High praise in the British & American media for England’s finest historian

Cont..

-----
Peace,
Om
K

7:35 PM  
Anonymous Nate said...

Good lord, holocaust denial? I suppose if you talk honestly about conspiracy theory you attract all types, but sheesh. And do we have to spam the blog comments with such a long-winded refutation?

I wanted to say: have you seen this blog? Seems in a very similar ballpark: psychopathology and politics.

http://ponerology.blogspot.com

8:07 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Nate,

You think it is heresy to have questions? What if it's a put-on, like 9/11 or JFK? I agree with you about the windbaggery, though they are not refutations.

Roads End,

Irving is the perfect straw man for you holocaust believers. I do not rely on him.

Now try to answer the questions as best you can. Don't forget to have a good look at your revisionism primer first.

8:30 PM  
Blogger foist lastus said...

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/670245.html

It is possible that within a short time a court in the United States will prohibit the publication of the account before us. In the meantime, Haaretz has obtained the testimony given last month by William Gowen, a former intelligence officer in the United States Army, at a federal court in San Francisco. The testimony contains historical and political explosives. It links Giovanni Battista Montini, who later became Pope Paul VI, to the theft of property of Jewish, Serb, Russian, Ukrainian and Roma victims during World War II in Yugoslavia. Many studies and stories have already been written about the thundering silence of Pope Pius XII, who reigned in the Vatican during World War II.

8:40 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mr Milligan

Irving was recognised as the greatest authority on the Third Rich. He is now persona non grata in Britain, you can't buy his books there unlike the US.

The best one can say about that hit piece is that the author is low life.

Irving took on the Pernguin/Lipstadt/Speilberg legal team along with their paid for witnesses and wiped the floor with them. The opinion of the presiding lawyer is of little consequence.

Irving is fabulously wealthy and that's why they villify him so much, he can't be bought or made homeless.

Why do you think it's a very serious crime to question the holocaust in germany - is it because germans are fundamentally evil or is it because too many of them know the truth.

What would Americans say if it was illegal to deny that Arabs were solely responsible for 9/11 ?

8:46 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Irving is a racist meglomaniac product of the Englsh public school system, the very type that took on world and created the British Empire.

I still think he's right about the gas chambers - Simon Weisenthal said in 1975 "there were no gas chambers in Germany", it sems Mr Milligan thinks there were..

Irving IS the perfect straw man because every TV watching fuckwit says he is a holocaust denier which is completely untrue. He documents many deliberate nazi atrocities including mass murder against the Jews.


The perpetual linking of spiritual groups to fascism is simple minded trash by the way. The United States is now awash with New Age Oprahism.

9:00 PM  
Blogger RoadsEnd said...

Anonymouse,

Well, having just been through a libel case, I do not think that you know of what you speak ...


Here is a whole website on the subject --
http://www.holocaustdenialontrial.org/mjud.html

Truth triumphed in a 2000 London courtroom when Deborah Lipstadt, Emory University's internationally distinguished scholar of the Holocaust, exposed a Holocaust denier who deliberately manipulated historical evidence in order to refute that the Holocaust happened, and to advance his anti-Semitic and white supremacist ideology.

Lipstadt originally made reference to this historical misrepresentation in her book, "Denying the Holocaust: The Growing Assault on Truth and Memory" (Free Press, 1993). In response, Holocaust denier David Irving sued Dr. Lipstadt and her British publisher, Penguin Books, for libel in a trial that made headlines around the world. England's libel laws, unlike American laws, place an onerous burden of proof on the defendant-in this case, Dr. Lipstadt.

Despite the legal and financial challenges of mounting a defense, Dr. Lipstadt and Penguin won their case resoundingly and exposed the pseudo scholarship and devious methodology of Irving and others who seek to distort 20th-century history in order to promote 21st-century anti-Semitism and white supremacy.

The trial experience reinforced the importance of scholarship in sustaining historical truth as a foundation for a just society. Dr. Lipstadt chronicles her five-year legal battle and her-and history's-emphatic victory in her latest book, "History on Trial" (Ecco, 2005).

The book is based on the documents made available through this Web site, including the groundbreaking research of Dr. Lipstadt's stellar legal team lead by Richard Rampton, Anthony Julius, and James Libson as well as the meticulous research reports prepared by the expert witnesses, Richard Evans, Robert Jan van Pelt, Christopher Browning, Peter Longerich, and Hajo Funke. The site also contains the riveting trial-room testimony and Judge Charles Gray's historic opinion which found Irving to be a "right-wing pro-Nazi polemicist" who "deliberately misrepresented and manipulated historical evidence."

The verdict made headlines around the world:

- Daily Telegraph (London) on Lipstadt’s victory: "[It achieved] for the new century what the Nuremburg Tribunals or the Eichmann trial did for earlier generations."

- The Times (London): "History has had its day in court and scored a crushing victory."

- The New York Times: "The verdict puts an end to the pretense that Mr. Irving is anything but a self-promoting apologist for Hitler."

But the work is not over.

While Lipstadt's decisive victory was an important legal milestone, the threat of libel continues against publishers of books that expose deniers. Many people are concerned that with the passing away of the generation of witnesses-the survivors, liberators, and contemporaries of the Holocaust—deniers will continue to distort history. But the trial demonstrates both the abundant documentation on the Holocaust and how historians can, through careful and meticulous research, teach us what happened during this terrible period in world history. "As academicians," Lipstadt says, "we must use our scholarship to support historical truth. It is our responsibility."

Emory University is grateful to all those who have supported the establishment of this Web site and the educational work associated with it. The original work on the site was made possible by a generous grant from the Charles H. Revson Foundation. In addition, we wish to thank Jerri-Ann Jacobs and Gary E. Jacobs, The Jewish Community Endowment Fund on behalf of The Fern E. and William J. Lowenberg Philanthropic Fund, the Howard and Leslie Schultz Family Foundation, and The Wilf Family Foundation.

For more information on Emory University's work in this realm, please visit the Web site for Emory University's Rabbi Donald A. Tam Institute for Jewish Studies.

----
As a "jew" once said, -- a wise man built his house on the rock: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.
a foolish man built his house on the sand: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall.--

-----
Peace,
Om
Kris Millegan

9:26 PM  
Anonymous Josh said...

I hope you guys don't think I'm a "Holocoust Denier" because all I did was look at numbers critically. I have no "agenda" or belief system I want to prove or shove down someone's throat. The reactions to my questions have sparked something I didn't expect. I assure you my "do the math" approach was totally innocent. I have learned from all of this, though.

Now I have another question: why the fervor?

The Lady doth protest too much???

9:44 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"I do not think that you know of what you speak ..."

Yes I do, unlike you I read the book written by the Lipstadt team. It was paper thin nonsense and turned me into a revisionist, David Irving could never have managed that.

Aren't you one of these 9/11 deniers by the way, muslim fanatic apologist that you are. Don't you publish that traitor Dan Hopsicker, DUDE ?

Call yourself a patriotic American ? Didn't I notice you playing up the conspiracy theories about Jews being arested after 9/11 ? The Israeli government says your an anti-semite, quite rightly too.

How many gas chambers were there in Germany Mr Milligan ?

New York Times, London Times indeed !!!

9:54 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anon 12:09 said:


I clicked on some of your embedded links and have been reading this JFC Fuller guy’s “Secret Wisdom of the Qabalah.” It is fascinating book, only 92 pages, and very understandable.

Yet I am perplexed. Throughout the work, Fuller writes in a tone of admiration, and from the consisten position as a faithful participant in the Qabalistic plan for man’s future. If he was a Nazi, and I am not saying that he was not - seeing that you wrote he was invited to Hitler's 50th birthday party, then how does one understand the following passage which are his own words (page 73):


No need to be perplexed. Nazis believed themselves to be the TRUE Jews, and the "Jews" to be imposters. Jewish identity seems to be of huge importance to Fascists, and not only them: Royal houses of Europe apparently also consider it of extreme importance - all that Holy Grail stuff. It's all very strange how Jewishness is yet AGAIN a big issue to some people.

12:33 AM  
Blogger RDR said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

2:37 AM  
Blogger RDR said...

Josh, you said:

"I hope you guys don't think I'm a "Holocoust Denier" because all I did was look at numbers critically."

Actually, Josh, the place to try "looking at the numbers critically" is in the library stacks; or, as a preliminary substitute, by throwing some appropriate terms into a search engine.

The erroneous figure of 4,000,000 Jews dead in Auschwitz is widely acknowledged as a Soviet fabrication. Perhaps you don't realize that Auschwitz is located in Poland, which was part of the Eastern Bloc at the time that the plaque commemorating 4,000,000 dead was put in place. That plaque was later replaced when its accuracy wwas challenged. The 4,000,000 number of Jewsh dead at Auschwitz was not accepted by Raul Hilberg, the most well-known and highly respected scholar on the Nazi genocide, who provided his personal estimate of around 1 million.

For what it's worth, Hilberg's estimate of the total number of Jews killed is lower than 6 million. It's...5.1 million. That doesn't exactly amount to an absolution of the Nazis, in my opinion. Some historians offer varying figures, some more, some less. Just about every researcher has concluded that several million Jews died on account of being singled out and marked for death by the Nazi regime.

Hilberg attributes about half of that total to the deportation and concentration camps, and about half to the massacres that occurred in the course of the Nazi push eastward into Russia. In many of the conquered territories, the Nazis relied on the paramilitaries of the Waffen SS- comprised of non-German sympathizers- to round up the local Jewish populations and massacre them. That accounts for the murdered Jews who did not die in the deportations and camps. These extermination programs were often quite ruthless. The Baltic states of Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia were nearly completely "ethnically cleansed" of their Jewish populations by death squads of local paramilitaries organized by the Nazis, for instance.

Many of the Jews I've met or communicated with have told me of losing relatives in the concentration camps, and were children or close relatives of survivors. But in the case of the massacre victims in places like Latvia or Croatia, there were no surviving relatives. The pattern in the early days of the Eastern Front campaign was to get sympathetic nationals to round up all the Jews in the local shetl and gun them down, often after they had been forced to dig pits as mass graves. This process was so gory and hideous that it was traumatic to many of the SS soldiers, so the Nazi high command turned to deportations to concentration camps. Argue over the provability of the nuts and bolts of the methods and causes of death all you want, but it appears plain enough to me that all of those railroad trips were intended as one-way tickets.

"I have no "agenda" or belief system I want to prove or shove down someone's throat."

I can only speak for myself...I didn't say that you did. And if anyone else impied that in the course of responding to you, I missed it.

"The reactions to my questions have sparked something I didn't expect."

Well, you must be new to this business. A lot of us have heard from the Nazi apologists, ad nauseum. And the thing is, they never seem to quit!

"I assure you my "do the math" approach was totally innocent."

That's reassuring. You see, often, when people do things like questioning the Soviet exaggerations about the numbers of Auschwitz dead, it isn't done in the spirit of honest inquiry. Rather, it's employed as a rhetorical question, used to indict the entire factual basis of the systematic identification, detention, deportation, incarceration, and extermination of unwanted populations like the Jews and Gypsies in the territories conquered by the Nazis. And, to someone unwary who does no further research, it appears at first notice that the deniers have a point.

"I have learned from all of this, though.

Now I have another question: why the fervor?"

Well, as I noted previously, deniers of the Nazi programs of systematic genocide are obsessively persistent. Note, for instance, how the very first reply on this topic thread referenced the subject of Jeff's article only briefly, in the course of diverting the discussion with an insinuation that the claim of Nazi genocide was a Jewish fabrication that didn't crop up until the late 1950s.

There are reams of evidence to the contrary that refute "anonymous 6:41 AM's" insinuation, but people would have to do some actual research for themselves in order to realize that.

( It continually mystifies me why people get knocked over by one out-of-context fact or factoid proffered by an on-line polemicists, when it's so easy to simply feed a few relevant terms into a search engine and get a wider spectrum of opinions, at least some of which is likely to be sufficiently well-documented, referenced, and ethically balanced enough in terms of the pursuit of historical objectivity to be considered authoritative. )

"The Lady doth protest too much???"

I think I can make out a rhetorical question there...your point?

3:30 AM  
Blogger Pissedoffcabbie said...

I've often accused those who dispell notions of 9/11 complicity as being in the same league as holocaust deniers. It usually stops them in their tracks.

When arguing the folly of the Vietnam War with my father, he would invariably run in a highly agitated state to get his photos from a concentration camp, and shove them under my nose. The sigularity of this trauma made me wonder just what the event had wrought. We would assume that it could never happen again?

http://pissedoffcabbie.blogspot.com/

4:06 AM  
Blogger Sounder said...

I think that struggles between communities disguise what are in fact struggles within a community. In the pre-WW context the rising role of the Jewish intellectual was in tension with the Rabbis. The 'chosen' within the secular Jewish mindset may not have included the larger Jewish community. This reads similar to the idea that the elite of any given country may not be the greatest patriots.

7:08 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Josh,

You might notice he doesn't really answer your questions or mine. Plenty of ad hominem aspersions - a certain sign of a very poor argument. He isn't really up with current research. I don't think there is a current defensible Final Solution total to which an historian will commit. No comment on the incredible gas chambers. Plus I noticed this little "historical judgment":

"Argue over the provability of the nuts and bolts of the methods and causes of death all you want, but it appears plain enough to me that all of those railroad trips were intended as one-way tickets."

Don't worry about the lack of physical, photographic, documentary evidence. Just believe the utterly fantastic "eyewitness" stories - none of whom saw any gassings or can credibly describe the buildings. Your math exercise is just the start of its unbelievability.

I actually used to be a believer, even a specialist, in this subject until the absurd weaknesses of the whole tale became apparent. As for being obsessive, it isn't revisionists who are ramming this nonsense into children's heads and opening "museums" daily, plus a new compulsory remembrance day.

Whom does the Lie serve? Jewish compensation claimants; Israel; the rotten imperialist gang who won WW2 and who needed this lie to be able to present themselves as somehow better than the Nazis and to transform their mass murder of German and Japanese civilians into the "good war" we all have to believe in. Rank heresy. Proud of it.

7:16 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

One Jewish writer:

"The Holocaust has proven to be an indispensable ideological weapon. Through its deployment, one of the world's most formidable military powers (Israel), with a horrendous human rights record, has cast itself as a "victim" state, and the most successful ethnic group in the United States has likewise acquired victim status. Considerable dividends accrue from this specious victimhood-in particular, immunity to criticism, however justified." (Norman Finklestein, "The Holocaust Industry: Reflections on the Exploitation of Jewish Suffering", Verso, 2000).

8:40 AM  
Blogger RoadsEnd said...

Anonymouse says:

Yes I do, unlike you I read the book written by the Lipstadt team. It was paper thin nonsense and turned me into a revisionist, David Irving could never have managed that.

So are you an pro-Irving anonymouse?

Aren't you one of these 9/11 deniers by the way, muslim fanatic apologist that you are. Don't you publish that traitor Dan Hopsicker, DUDE ?

No, I have stated since the 9/11 event that it was an attack by our "ruling class," similiar to the USS Maine deception.
Please pray tell, why is Daniel Hopsicker a traitor? What have you done anonymouse? Lobbed cheap shots? Dan Hopsicker is an investigative reporter, who has exposed much about the official lies of 9-11. Again, what have you done? You do not even have the courage to stand-up for your convictions.


Call yourself a patriotic American ? Didn't I notice you playing up the conspiracy theories about Jews being arested after 9/11 ? The Israeli government says your an anti-semite, quite rightly too.

Throwing out odd accusations? Any proof of what you speak? And what is your point?

Nothing but crap is what you peddle.

Peace,
Om
Kris Millegan

11:35 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

OK, were there or were there not actual "gas ovens" found after the war(capable of killing millions)? Why is it always called "The Holocaust" as if there weren't other "holocausts" throughout history, ie the Armenian holocaust or the Stalinist holocaust? How do the Zionists and the rebuilding of the temple play into the overall fascist NWO we see forming? Since they have been lying and deceiving people all along about everything else, including the 1969 "moon landing", why believe just because they said so? I guess you could call me a "moon landing denier".

12:36 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

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7:58 PM  
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12:44 PM  
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4:47 PM  
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11:15 PM  
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