Thursday, March 16, 2006

Inoculations



Through the days of shame that are coming
Through the nights of wild distress
Though your promise count for nothing
You must keep it nonetheless - Leonard Cohen

I've been recovering this week from a nasty stomach virus. A bit like an ayahuasca ceremony without the ayahuasca, and piss-all enlightenment, too. But it's reminded me that illness is more than a metaphor, and sometimes not entirely natural.

Smallpox, for one bloody precedent. In a postscript to his letter of July 16, 1763 Lord Jeffrey Amherst, the commander of British forces in North America during the French and Indian War, instructed Colonel Henry Bouquet to "do well to try to innoculate the Indians by means of blanketts, as well as to try every other method that can serve to extirpate this execrable race." (I don't see inoculate used like that these days, except by those whom the mass culture deems to be in need of medication themselves.) Infected blankets wasn't a one-off for Amherst. In other letters he calls the natives "Vermine [who] have forfeited all claim to the rights of humanity," and expresses his desire to "put a most Effectual Stop to their very Being."

Of course that was then, before genocide was even a word, much less a crime. Though at Massachusetts' Amherst College, china plates depicting sword-wielding, mounted Englishmen in hot pursuit of Indians were still in use as late as the 1970s. Dictionaries and law books and generations of bad examples haven't crimped the style of the pro-active eugenicist.

"The forms of warfare are changing," said Russian Communist party leader Gennady Zyuganov in a Tuesday press conference. "It's strange that not a single duck has yet died in America - they are all dying in Russia and European countries. This makes one seriously wonder why." Asked whether he was suggesting Avian Flu was a US biological weapon, he replied "I not only suggest this, I know very well how this can be arranged. There is nothing strange here."

I think Zyuganov is wrong on at least a couple of points. For one thing, Lord Amherst could tell him that nothing has changed. And for another, if Avian Flu is a weapon of either design or opportunity, its intended victims are also American. Because at the top of the food chain, where it's whole nations that are consumed, the fattest and most tender of all is naturally also on the menu.

As a third US beef cow tests positive for BSE, Newspapers move US mad cow story off front pages. One infected cow is the End of the World; two is worrisome. Three, and it's yesterday's news. The horror is in the novelty. Make something bad, bad enough for long enough that it becomes part of our landscape, and we just don't care anymore. It seems whatever doesn't kill us outright we can make peace with until it kills us eventually. It's another way in which we are inoculated. And so, the alarmingly predictable development that, "Despite the confirmation of a third case of mad cow disease, the government intends to scale back testing for the brain-wasting disorder blamed for the deaths of more than 150 people in Europe."

The Democratic dithering over Feingold's modest resolution is engendering considerable counter-dithering by those who still hope to see a political solution they can recognize to a parapolitical crisis they can't imagine. "The majority of the American people agree with what the president’s doing," said a Democratic aide. "A lot of people outside the beltway see [illegal surveillance] as a tool that’s keeping Americans safe."

Illness is also a metaphor, and the sickness of American politics is not indeliberate. Democrats and Republicans have both been taking strange medicine for a long while, and those who've refused their inoculations have been prone to other kinds of magic bullets: fatal accidents and character assassinations, and the receipt of envelopes filled with white powder bearing the return address of Fort Detrick. Bush in 2006 should be the most vulnerable president since Nixon in 1974, yet he isn't. To ask why he's not may take the courage of a microbiologist.

I've been thinking of the family in Tikrit who were murdered yesterday morning in an American raid. Eleven shot to death, including five children, one as young as seven months, before their house was blown up.

Another policeman, Colonel Farouq Hussein, said autopsies had been carried out at Tikrit hospital and found "all the victims had gunshot wounds to the head". The bodies, their hands bound, had been dumped in one room before the house was destroyed, Hussein said. Police had found spent American-issue cartridges in the rubble.

Despite the eyewitness accounts and the photos of dead babies, the US Army admits to only the deaths of two women and a child, and most American reports of the incident preface the news with the advisory "Iraqis Say -". It needs reminding that, unlike three years ago, the Iraqi police and US forces are now supposedly on the same side. Though just the day before, also in Tikrit, an American "security contractor" was arrested travelling alone with explosives in his car.

Charitably, though inaccurately, the US mission in Iraq could be described as a clinical test gone horribly wrong, while the "men in smart suits," like Francis Fukuyama, make themselves scarce. But the US isn't dispensing that kind of inoculation. It isn't the neocon fable of intravenous democracy, even if it kills the patient. It's Lord Amherst's blankets.

Many German and Austrian neighbours of the camps knew well enough what happened after the box cars rolled through the gates. Still, they didn't see until the liberators forced them to walk the grounds and bury the innocent dead. The victims were foreign and faceless, and it was easy to continue believing one was a good neighbour for minding one's business.

Things are different now. The dead babies are on Yahoo, and Salon hosts hundreds of Abu Ghraib photos and videos. No people in history have had greater access to the atrocities of their own force of arms even as they are being committed. Americans are growing accustomed to the spectacle of broken and beheaded bodies, and I think that's the idea. Because it's getting old. Meanwhile, the only truly forbidden images are those of flag-drapped coffins. The Pentagon certainly wants Americans kept in the dark, but darkness can mean more than mere ignorance.

One dead baby is the End of the World. Too many dead babies and we have a new world altogether.

153 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

"I think Zyuganov is wrong on at least a couple of points. For one thing, Lord Amherst could tell him that nothing has changed. And for another, if Avian Flu is a weapon of either design or opportunity, its intended victims are also American."

I am not so sure. Maybe the chemtrails are not there to harm people in North America, maybe they are there to 'inoculate' you. It never made much sense to me to indiscriminately poison your own population so maybe the opposite is happening. Maybe you are being inoculated against some engineered virus that is yet to be released. And the bird flu scare is just to get us all mentally prepared for the concept of a modern plague and to test the effectiveness of the US protection system. Try the system on the bird population first and then if the results are satisfactory it is time for the human variant to be released.

5:39 AM  
Anonymous Gouda said...

Churchill to the Palestine Royal Commission (1937):

"I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place."

***

SAS soldier refuses to fight in Iraq
http://theage.com.au/news/world/sas-soldier-refuses-to-fight-in-iraq/2006/03/12/1142098343662.html

-snip-

"After three months in Baghdad, Ben Griffin told his commander that he was no longer prepared to fight alongside American forces.

He said he had witnessed 'dozens of illegal acts' by US troops, claiming they viewed all Iraqis as 'untermenschen' - the Nazi term for races regarded as sub-human."

-snip-

6:09 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous One,first off,Jeff I have felt your pain.What ever passed through your spot up above us here in upstate NY,came through my house to,that shit is for-real.I just hope they can't make that bug up anytime they like.It's time to get our tinfoil hats,on the ready.The stream of consciousnous in this place is being directed 24/7,and it is not a nice place where we are going.Sometimes you ask your self, is this possible,that people don't know what is going on? Sorry to say,no one can be forced to listen to anything you or I tell them. What ever these evil fuckers have in mind for the sheepull will smackum like a brick in the forehead,later.

6:51 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

i think amherst college is in massachusetts. maybe theres another in new york im unaware of.

7:12 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

THE HISTORICAL ROOTS OF THE NEW WORLD ORDER AND ITS PERMANENT WAR ECONOMY

A classified conference sponsored by the Los Alamos nuclear weapons lab was held in the Applied Physics Laboratory at Johns Hopkins University in November 1993. Colonel Alexander served as the conference Chairman. The meeting was attended by Attorney-General Janet Reno, numerous scientists, military weapons experts, and intelligence officials from state and local police departments. The main purpose of the meeting was to prepare leading law enforcement officials for the use of psychotronic mind-control weapons.

Zbiegniew Brzezinski, a Rockefeller recruit and founder of the Trilateral Commission, had much revealing information to give back in the seventies about technologies that are being disclosed now. He wrote in Between two Ages:


"Accurately timed, artificially excited electronic strokes could lead to a pattern of oscillations that produce relatively high power levels over certain regions of the Earth ... one could develop a system that would seriously impair the brain performance of a very large population in selected regions over an extended period." (Zbiegniew Brzezinski, Between Two Ages, 1971).


When an American electropollution activist asked Motorola the purpose of the 10 hertz frequency on the carrier wave of the new Motorola police radio system, she did not get an answer (Personal Communications with Libby Kelley, Chair Marin County Health Council, 2003). From my own investigations and many interviews, I learned that this system was beamed across America when the Cold War ended, through Motorola radio systems, the Police and emergency response radio towers, cell phone towers, satellites, and another Motorola product —TETRA—in Britain:
Costing £2.9 billion, the UK’s new police communication system TETRA has been described by one independent scientist as likely to cause ‘more civilian deaths than all the world’s terrorist organisations put together’. (Jay Griffiths, "A Popular Revolt", The Ecologist, September 17, 2004)


Death may be the hidden purpose, for "culling" society. Welcome to the New World Order.

7:20 AM  
Anonymous trachys said...

What has made it impossible for us to live in time like fish in water, like birds in air, like children? It is the fault of Empire! Empire has created the time of history....One thought alone preoccupies the submerged mind of Empire: how not to end, how not to die, how to prolong its era. By day it pursues its enemies. It is cunning and ruthless, it sends its bloodhounds everywhere. By night it feeds on images of disaster: the sack of cities, the rape of populations, pyramids of bones, acres of desolation. A mad vision yet a virulent one.

J.M.Coetzee, Waiting for the Barbarians

another superb post Jeff.

8:05 AM  
Blogger Jeff said...

"i think amherst college is in massachusetts. maybe theres another in new york im unaware of."

That was the one I was thinking of too. You're right, thanks; I've corrected the text.

8:36 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This off-topic, but i have to ask if Jeff questions the "Holocaust" at all. Since you seem to be skeptical about so much and you made mention of "Germans and Austrian living near the camps".

Does that mean you accept and endorse this piece of propaganda against Nationalism called the "Holocaust"? That you believe this ONE bit of history while you question all else?

PS- Jeff's beloved "Peaceable Kingdom" of Canada is responsible for extraditing an elderly German-Canadian immigrant for simly being skeptical.

PPS- I am anon. but will respond in kind. This is not a provocation or troll-job. I really want to know.

PPS- I'm not a bigot, for the record.I married a Jew. So there.

8:40 AM  
Blogger Jeff said...

"Does that mean you accept and endorse this piece of propaganda against Nationalism called the 'Holocaust'? That you believe this ONE bit of history while you question all else?"

History isn't legitimized by the virtue of being "alternative." For instance, I accept that Laura Secord really did warn Colonel Fitzgibbon of the American plan of attack before the Battle of Beaver Dams.

As I posted yesterday on the RI discussion board, holocaust denial is not a neutral topic of historical inquiry, it's a lure cast by Nazi apologists for vulnerably open minds, which exploits their fresh sense of distrust of history by suggesting that this, too, must be a lie.

Somehow, I'm fairly skeptical that Ernst Zundel, the "elderly German-Canadian immigrant" and author of The Hitler We Loved and Why, was "simply being skeptical" by denying the Holocaust.

9:09 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Great post - you really nailed our national disease.

Thanks for your blog.

9:17 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hello Jeff
I have never written before and read your blog almost every day. I just want to give you a big THANKS and ask if you are every going to publish all of the articles on your blog. It would make a great book. The only reason I buy printer ink is to print out your blog articles. I was also just reading about bird flu and your latest blog sent chills down my spine. The POB will do anything to kill us. I am convinced, since the year 2000 when I woke up when the bushmonster stole the election, that they are a regime of DEATH. Iraq, Katrina,AIDS= all of it is a system of death and destruction by design. It is very scary. I never thought it could be true. But it is only too true.
I want to thank you again for this blog. It is the best on the net. Please think about putting it all in a book.

9:25 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I forgot to say that I have had the flu twice this winter and I had not been sick for five years until this year. And the last flu I had was just awful and unlike anyting I had ever experienced. I dread what is coming.

9:28 AM  
Blogger Jeff said...

...ask if you are ever going to publish all of the articles on your blog

Not all of them, but there is a book planned. I'm working on one for Trine Day that's based upon the blog. It should be published next year.

9:39 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"To ask why he's not may take the courage of a microbiologist."

Many of whom are also dead, now. Along with a string of Marconi engineers.

S.

10:03 AM  
Blogger RoadsEnd said...

Great Post Jeff, Thanks.

The "inoculation" "metaphors" are very valid.

Using the discipline of social history to look at the secret societal control mechanism I find very revealing. In looking at Bones membership list, one notices that in the early years there was a preponderance of teachers and preachers among the usual lawyers, merchants, industrialists, government folk and bankers.

The teacher/preacher emphasis had to do with controlling the inoculations, especially during formative years. Then one notices that they started to enter into the Communications industry, i.e. Time-Life, Newsweek, CBS, Copley and others to inoculate the body politic with propaganda. Then the transportation industry, during the cocaine frenzied 70's and 80's a Bonesman was president of Beechcraft and another major private plane company, I can't remember right now, to help that "inoculation." plus Fed Ex/Kinkos is Bones-led. And Sears and K-Mart. And we have no idea who most of the members are from 1986 to 1998. So we have no notion of their activities.


Right now the system does not serve the people but simply services its own corruption while inoculating us daily through the media into "submission."

Now is the time for all good men and women to come to the aid of their country.

Peace,
Om
Kris Millegan

10:06 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Jeff,

Great post again!

Thank you for mentioning the genocide perpetrated by the British on the original North Americans. The British, historically a predatory culture, are the supreme rip-off artists of the past milenia.

The U.S. represents the continuation of this destructive M.O.

It is not surprising that their is no REAL progress here. Our political insitutions ensure that there will never be.

"It just isn't politically realistic to back a project that won't pay off in time for the next relevant election cycle--even if you could find politicians that would be willing to sacrifice their own re-election for the greater good, they would still be hamstringed by the unavailability of the campaign funding on which they require, and would likely lose in the next election to a candidate who is promising a short-term benefit... We're structurally short-sighted, which goes right along with my general thesis that the structure of our institutions, much more than the individuals within them, is the real root of our problems."

Smoke & Monetary Policy
- Jeff Vail

http://www.jeffvail.net/2006/03/
smoke-monetary-policy.html

Jeff, your observation that "Illness is also a metaphor, and the sickness of American politics is not indeliberate" is correct.

You could say that the U.S. suffers from Munchausen by Proxy Syndrome....

10:14 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I really think Robert Anton Wilson has created a race of rabid conspiracy mongers who go monkey on just about anything that happens in the world.
RAW reminds me of a L. Ron Hubbard sort of clever and deceptive con-artist who weaves selected aspects of the so-called "illuminati"/one-world-government crap in with smatterings of Crowley/OTO/UFO/Freemasons/etc/etc/etc for extremely naive and uncritical thinking people. If anybody actually believes that the U.S. government is actually competent enough to come up with and execute one/one-thousandths of the conspiratorial junk attributed to them... oh wait, they're getting help from the zeta reticuli greys that they signed a secret treaty with!

12:01 PM  
Anonymous little man said...

The gratest trick the devil ever pulled off, was making people think he didn't exist

12:13 PM  
Blogger Jeff said...

"If anybody actually believes that the U.S. government is actually competent enough..."

Government? What is that, exactly?

12:21 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hello Jeff,
Thanks for the info about the book. I will buy it the day it comes out. I am so relieved to hear that some of the articles will be published in book form. I am running out of ink all the time trying to print everything out you have written. EVERY one of your articles is worth reading. You are an excellent writer. I can't wait for your next post. This blog keeps me sane in the insane usa.

12:31 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Secretary Rice Out to Inoculate Latin America":

"It was clearly a sign of the administration’s ongoing delusions about Latin America when on February 16, Secretary of State Rice declared that she intended to pursue an “inoculation” strategy against Venezuela, and enlist the support of a “united front” of regional nations. But Rice didn’t specify who would join that cohort, and indeed who beyond a couple of Central American banana republics, and maybe trade obsessed Chile, would be content to be a spear carrier in such an unlikely grand opera?"

3:15 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

To go a bit further with the 'Bones' item--and maybe this is well known and I somehow managed to miss it, but: is there a 'Bones' connection with the Dubai Ports company? I heard an interview in which the head of that company--or of a part of it?--was described as a Yale grad.

3:42 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"As I posted yesterday on the RI discussion board, holocaust denial is not a neutral topic of historical inquiry, it's a lure cast by Nazi apologists for vulnerably open minds, which exploits their fresh sense of distrust of history by suggesting that this, too, must be a lie."

Such total self belief, such poor writing and what in the name of twisted fucking slime is this meant to mean.

"their fresh sense of distrust "

I believe you are a Jew who finds it convenient to keep the fact hidden. Not that it matters beside the facr you are a complete creep and an idiot who posts on his own forum under various names all with the same dismal sophistry

3:47 PM  
Anonymous Richard said...

Ahhhhhh, another day, another US bombing campaign in Iraq.

The folks at FAIR have assembled this tiny bit of the Conservative Wisdom Archive.

Not that anyone will notice the huuuuuuuuuuge effing foot sticking out of the mouths of every Republican in this halfwit country.



Declaring Victory

"Iraq Is All but Won; Now What?"
(Los Angeles Times headline, 4/10/03)


"Now that the combat phase of the war in Iraq is officially over, what begins is a debate throughout the entire U.S. government over America's unrivaled power and how best to use it."
(CBS reporter Joie Chen, 5/4/03)


"Congress returns to Washington this week to a world very different from the one members left two weeks ago. The war in Iraq is essentially over and domestic issues are regaining attention."
(NPR's Bob Edwards, 4/28/03)


"Tommy Franks and the coalition forces have demonstrated the old axiom that boldness on the battlefield produces swift and relatively bloodless victory. The three-week swing through Iraq has utterly shattered skeptics' complaints."
(Fox News Channel's Tony Snow, 4/27/03)


"The only people who think this wasn't a victory are Upper Westside liberals, and a few people here in Washington."
(Charles Krauthammer, Inside Washington, WUSA-TV, 4/19/03)


"We had controversial wars that divided the country. This war united the country and brought the military back."
(Newsweek's Howard Fineman--MSNBC, 5/7/03)


"We're all neo-cons now."
(MSNBC's Chris Matthews, 4/9/03)


"The war was the hard part. The hard part was putting together a coalition, getting 300,000 troops over there and all their equipment and winning. And it gets easier. I mean, setting up a democracy is hard, but it is not as hard as winning a war."
(Fox News Channel's Fred Barnes, 4/10/03)


"Oh, it was breathtaking. I mean I was almost starting to think that we had become inured to everything that we'd seen of this war over the past three weeks; all this sort of saturation. And finally, when we saw that it was such a just true, genuine expression. It was reminiscent, I think, of the fall of the Berlin Wall. And just sort of that pure emotional expression, not choreographed, not stage-managed, the way so many things these days seem to be. Really breathtaking."
(Washington Post reporter Ceci Connolly, appearing on Fox News Channel on 4/9/03, discussing the pulling down of a Saddam Hussein statue in Baghdad, an event later revealed to have been a U.S. military PSYOPS operation [stunt]--Los Angeles Times, 7/3/04)


Mission Accomplished?

"The war winds down, politics heats up.... Picture perfect. Part Spider-Man, part Tom Cruise, part Ronald Reagan. The president seizes the moment on an aircraft carrier in the Pacific."
(PBS's Gwen Ifill, 5/2/03, on George W. Bush's "Mission Accomplished" speech)


"We're proud of our president. Americans love having a guy as president, a guy who has a little swagger, who's physical, who's not a complicated guy like Clinton or even like Dukakis or Mondale, all those guys, McGovern. They want a guy who's president. Women like a guy who's president. Check it out. The women like this war. I think we like having a hero as our president. It's simple. We're not like the Brits."
(MSNBC's Chris Matthews, 5/1/03)


"He looked like an alternatively commander in chief, rock star, movie star, and one of the guys."
(CNN's Lou Dobbs, on Bush's 'Mission Accomplished' speech, 5/1/03)


Neutralizing the Opposition

"Why don't the damn Democrats give the president his day? He won today. He did well today."
(MSNBC's Chris Matthews, 4/9/03)


"What's he going to talk about a year from now, the fact that the war went too well and it's over? I mean, don't these things sort of lose their--Isn't there a fresh date on some of these debate points?"
(MSNBC's Chris Matthews, speaking about Howard Dean--4/9/03)


"If image is everything, how can the Democratic presidential hopefuls compete with a president fresh from a war victory?"
(CNN's Judy Woodruff, 5/5/03)


"It is amazing how thorough the victory in Iraq really was in the broadest context..... And the silence, I think, is that it's clear that nobody can do anything about it. There isn't anybody who can stop him. The Democrats can't oppose--cannot oppose him politically."
(Washington Post reporter Jeff Birnbaum-- Fox News Channel, 5/2/03)


Nagging the "Naysayers"

"Now that the war in Iraq is all but over, should the people in Hollywood who opposed the president admit they were wrong?"
(Fox News Channel's Alan Colmes, 4/25/03)


"I doubt that the journalists at the New York Times and NPR or at ABC or at CNN are going to ever admit just how wrong their negative pronouncements were over the past four weeks."
(MSNBC's Joe Scarborough, 4/9/03)


"I'm waiting to hear the words 'I was wrong' from some of the world's most elite journalists, politicians and Hollywood types.... I just wonder, who's going to be the first elitist to show the character to say: 'Hey, America, guess what? I was wrong'? Maybe the White House will get an apology, first, from the New York Times' Maureen Dowd. Now, Ms. Dowd mocked the morality of this war....

"Do you all remember Scott Ritter, you know, the former chief U.N. weapons inspector who played chief stooge for Saddam Hussein? Well, Mr. Ritter actually told a French radio network that -- quote, 'The United States is going to leave Baghdad with its tail between its legs, defeated.' Sorry, Scott. I think you've been chasing the wrong tail, again.

"Maybe disgraced commentators and politicians alike, like Daschle, Jimmy Carter, Dennis Kucinich, and all those others, will step forward tonight and show the content of their character by simply admitting what we know already: that their wartime predictions were arrogant, they were misguided and they were dead wrong. Maybe, just maybe, these self-anointed critics will learn from their mistakes. But I doubt it. After all, we don't call them 'elitists' for nothing."
(MSNBC's Joe Scarborough, 4/10/03)


"Over the next couple of weeks when we find the chemical weapons this guy was amassing, the fact that this war was attacked by the left and so the right was so vindicated, I think, really means that the left is going to have to hang its head for three or four more years."
(Fox News Channel's Dick Morris, 4/9/03)


"This has been a tough war for commentators on the American left. To hope for defeat meant cheering for Saddam Hussein. To hope for victory meant cheering for President Bush. The toppling of Mr. Hussein, or at least a statue of him, has made their arguments even harder to defend. Liberal writers for ideologically driven magazines like The Nation and for less overtly political ones like The New Yorker did not predict a defeat, but the terrible consequences many warned of have not happened. Now liberal commentators must address the victory at hand and confront an ascendant conservative juggernaut that asserts United States might can set the world right."
(New York Times reporter David Carr, 4/16/03)


"Well, the hot story of the week is victory.... The Tommy Franks-Don Rumsfeld battle plan, war plan, worked brilliantly, a three-week war with mercifully few American deaths or Iraqi civilian deaths.... There is a lot of work yet to do, but all the naysayers have been humiliated so far.... The final word on this is, hooray."
(Fox News Channel's Morton Kondracke, 4/12/03)


"Shouldn't the [Canadian] prime minister and all of us who thought the war was hasty and dangerous and wrongheaded admit that we were wrong? I mean, with the pictures of those Iraqis dancing in the streets, hauling down statues of Saddam Hussein and gushing their thanks to the Americans, isn't it clear that President Bush and Britain's Tony Blair were right all along? If we believe it's a good thing that Hussein's regime has been dismantled, aren't we hypocritical not to acknowledge Bush's superior judgment?... Why can't those of us who thought the war was a bad idea (or, at any rate, a premature one) let it go now and just join in celebrating the victory wrought by our magnificent military forces?"
(Washington Post's William Raspberry, 4/14/03)


"Some journalists, in my judgment, just can't stand success, especially a few liberal columnists and newspapers and a few Arab reporters."
(CNN's Lou Dobbs, 4/14/03)


"Sean Penn is at it again. The Hollywood star takes out a full-page ad out in the New York Times bashing George Bush. Apparently he still hasn't figured out we won the war."
(MSNBC's Joe Scarborough, 5/30/03)


Cakewalk?

"This will be no war -- there will be a fairly brief and ruthless military intervention.... The president will give an order. [The attack] will be rapid, accurate and dazzling.... It will be greeted by the majority of the Iraqi people as an emancipation. And I say, bring it on."
(Christopher Hitchens, in a 1/28/03 debate-- cited in the Observer, 3/30/03)


"I will bet you the best dinner in the gaslight district of San Diego that military action will not last more than a week. Are you willing to take that wager?"
(Fox News Channel's Bill O'Reilly, 1/29/03)


"It won't take weeks. You know that, professor. Our military machine will crush Iraq in a matter of days and there's no question that it will."
(Fox News Channel's Bill O'Reilly, 2/10/03)


"There's no way. There's absolutely no way. They may bomb for a matter of weeks, try to soften them up as they did in Afghanistan. But once the United States and Britain unleash, it's maybe hours. They're going to fold like that."
(Fox News Channel's Bill O'Reilly, 2/10/03)


"He [Saddam Hussein] actually thought that he could stop us and win the debate worldwide. But he didn't--he didn't bargain on a two- or three week war. I actually thought it would be less than two weeks."
(NBC reporter Fred Francis, Chris Matthews Show, 4/13/03)


Weapons of Mass Destruction

NPR's Mara Liasson: Where there was a debate about whether or not Iraq had these weapons of mass destruction and whether we can find it...

Brit Hume: No, there wasn't. Nobody seriously argued that he didn't have them beforehand. Nobody.
(Fox News Channel, April 6, 2003)


"Speaking to the U.N. Security Council last week, Secretary of State Colin Powell made so strong a case that Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein is in material breach of U.N. resolutions that only the duped, the dumb and the desperate could ignore it."
(Cal Thomas, syndicated column, 2/12/03)


"Saddam could decide to take Baghdad with him. One Arab intelligence officer interviewed by Newsweek spoke of 'the green mushroom' over Baghdad--the modern-day caliph bidding a grotesque bio-chem farewell to the land of the living alongside thousands of his subjects as well as his enemies. Saddam wants to be remembered. He has the means and the demonic imagination. It is up to U.S. armed forces to stop him before he can achieve notoriety for all time."
(Newsweek, 3/17/03)


"Chris, more than anything else, real vindication for the administration. One, credible evidence of weapons of mass destruction. Two, you know what? There were a lot of terrorists here, really bad guys. I saw them."
(MSNBC reporter Bob Arnot, 4/9/03)


"Even in the flush of triumph, doubts will be raised. Where are the supplies of germs and poison gas and plans for nukes to justify pre-emption? (Freed scientists will lead us to caches no inspectors could find.) What about remaining danger from Baathist torturers and war criminals forming pockets of resistance and plotting vengeance? (Their death wish is our command.)"
(New York Times' William Safire, 4/10/03)

4:09 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Jeff and friends -

Is there any hope left at all?

If all we can do is torture and murder each other. Sexually abuse young children, lie, connive and look the other way as innocents die all around us, destroy our planet as we head out to new planets.

Bird flu? We deserve it!

4:41 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

http://www.guerrillanews.com/headlines/8138/Fighting_for_Their_Lies

4:50 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"It's not simply a topic, it's a lure cast by Nazi apologists for the newly open minded, which exploits the fresh sense of distrust of history by suggesting this, too, must be a lie.

"I want it to be off the table here not because I consider the issue settled, though I do, but because I don't want the forum to become a place where neo-Nazis can trawl for converts."

What an obvious crock. Resembling the situation with Xymphora. Brilliant analyst, great writer, world-class spotter of chinks in every kind of official story, who (the last time I read his/her blog)declared that s/he just couldn't see ANY reason at all to question the 9/11 fiction.

Your ULTRA-selective refusal to discuss just ONE SINGLE TOPIC (the so-called "holocaust") is a glaring anomaly in YOUR universe, Mr. Jeff. I wonder what kind of undisclosed agenda and hidden loyalties it may be connected to in your life.

4:50 PM  
Anonymous phantasmic said...

Anonymous 3:47 PM - trollin now?
Negative comments flag the monster

5:00 PM  
Anonymous little man said...

To Anon 4:41;
Waaa, Waaa, WAAA! You can say we've been stunted from doing anything about this, you can say we 'nit-pick' over crap like 'holocost- real or not' bull-shit. But the fact remains, we're SCARED. We're ISOLATED. AND we're too sarcastic to do anything about it. Just as it takes insanity to lead us into war, it takes insanity to kick these BUMS out of our government. We're too busy to march. We're too jaded to pray. And we're too arrogant to have anyone lead US anywhere.

5:02 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Jeff, I have had extensive testing done over the past 4 months of my mysterious illness and 3 seperate doctors say it cannot be catagorized and have no answers. 3000 dollars later, I have found that I have been infected with a form of mycoplasma that has destroyed my immune system in 5 areas and is exactly the same as Gulf War Illness suffered by thousands in Gulf War 1.

My testosorone levels are at 440, when normal for my age is 1500, my iron levels are extremely low, and I have a form of Epstein Barr. Not to mention my glucose levels are borderline diabetic and my red blood cells are causing me to have heart palpatations. All of these symptoms were non existent 6 months ago. I am thoroughly convinced this has been brought on by the chemtrail spraying that has been taking place in my area for the past 5 months commencing in late October. All my maladies commenced within 3-4 weeks after they 1st started spraying. Not only that, amongst a dozen friends, we all have the exact same symptoms. I believe the only reason we are not all getting sick right now is this is on a time table. The steady rise of fear as the "flu" spreads unnaturally rapidly across Europe. Articles this week abound about the impending US invasion. I believe the type of mycoplasma we all are carrying will be triggered by the release of some bio agent. Have you noticed that this "bird flu" jumps from one country in Europe to the next in a matter of hours? We are being fumigated and this is Agenda 21, make no mistake about it. we will be hit hard.

6:29 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I just want to point out that this moron cannot spell inoculate or blanket. Further he doesn't know what inoculate actually means.

Kris Milligan doesn't disappoint by showing he doesn't know what inoculate means either. Milligan is the only publisher dumb enough to publish garbage like this.

His friend Daniel Hopsicker sent an email to his mailing list because he came across ONE guy who agreed with him, an American Marxist blogger with a total of zero comments on his blog.

6:35 PM  
Anonymous Hilda Martinez said...

I think Jeff might not be discussing the Holocaust here because there are laws against being a "Holocaust Naysayer" in Canada, no? He might have to be walking on a tightrope here with this topic.

Jeff???

6:47 PM  
Blogger Jeff said...

I believe you are a Jew

Inconceivable though it may be, I'm a gentile who regards the Nazi genocide a historical fact.

you are a complete creep and an idiot who posts on his own forum under various names all with the same dismal sophistry

Naturally: if others agree, they must be me. Or perhaps just Jews?

a glaring anomaly in YOUR universe, Mr. Jeff

I don't see it so. The internal consistency is I'm anti-fascist. That I don't embrace the author of The Hitler We Loved and Why as a beleagured truthseeker should be self-evident.

this moron cannot spell inoculate or blanket

The quote "innoculate the Indians by means of blanketts" preserves Amherst's spelling.

re Canadian laws, it's true, there are. But I'm not acting from compulsion, but conviction.

7:06 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

So on the subject of locals being led thru things, being forced to bear witness to darkness,
it seems like a good time for a revisit to the tomb:


Skull and Bones was founded in 1832 by William Huntington Russell and Alphonso Taft, two students who were not admitted into Phi Beta Kappa and who furthermore disliked a Phi Beta Kappa decision that took that organization public in 1831. The first Skull and Bones class, or "cohort," was the very next year, 1832-33.

Skull and Bones is known by many names, including The Order of Death, The Order, The Eulogian Club, and Lodge 322. Initiates are most commonly known as Bonesmen, Knights of Eulogia, Boddle boys, and GBdBs (Great Bones (of the) Boodle).

The society sometimes inspires a fanatical loyalty. Members have been known to stab the Bones insignia into their flesh to keep it on them while bathing.

... Kris Millegan writes that one of the rooms is uncannily arranged like a room arranged for an entrance into a higher level of the Bavarian Illuminati. Bones members are reported to be forced to reveal their innermost secrets and their "sexual biography" to one another. It has been suggested that this may be used for blackmailing.

The Skull and Bones Weekly Meeting Requirement for Group Analysis and Critique:
In the tomb with each other over the span of the year, members dine off a set of Hitler's silverware according to "dissident" Bones members interviewed by Alexandra Robbins for her book Secrets of The Tomb, consuming expensive gourmet meals. Members are given new code names. The members call themselves "Knights," and simultaneously call everyone else in the world at large "barbarians". Another dissociation is that clocks in the Bones "tomb" run intentionally five minutes ahead of the rest of the world, to give the members an ongoing sense that the Bonesmen's space is a totally separate world--and a world just a bit ahead of the curve of the rest of the "barbarians" outside.

Partially, "tapping" is a response to visible or anticipated excellence, thus it could be considered meritocratic. However, since a great many members of the membership in this secret society are drawn over and over from the same families as the "core" of the group, it is a typical nested secret society with "porch brethren" on the outside making a power network for those in the inner administrative levels of the secret society.

The top repetitive families in Skull and Bones are known because in 1985 a disgruntled Skull and Bones member leaked rosters to a private researcher, Antony C. Sutton. This leaked 1985 data was kept privately for over 15 years, as Sutton feared that the xeroxed pages could somehow identify the member who leaked it. The information was finally reformatted as an appendix in the book Fleshing out Skull and Bones by editor, researcher, and writer Kris Millegan, who published it in 2003.

The data shows that certain families have been well represented, and that these happen to be related to each other as well—such as the Cheney family, Taft family, Whitney family, Walker family, and Adams family. Other subordinate members are often related to these families. Other core family names are common. However, not all initiates in these families are as interrelated as the above group. This second category of core families covers such names as Smith, Allen, Brown, Clark, White, Day, Johnson, Jones, Miller, Stewart, Thompson, Cheney, Taft, Williams.

For an example of the predilection of certain core families being embedded in Skull and Bones (or vice versa), here are the top 15 families in Skull and Bones with 10+ Members (over 1833-1985, with occasional later years available):

Smith (15)
Walker (15)
Allen (13)
Brown (13)
Clark (12)
White (12)
Day (11)
Johnson (11)
Jones (11)
Miller (11)
Stewart (11)
Thompson (11)
Cheney (10)
Taft (10)
Williams (10)

The Skull and Bones "Tomb":
Their house is located on Yale's campus at 64 High Street. The building itself was built in 1900. New Haven police, as mentioned in the Robbins book, say that the Bones tomb has an underground entrance connected to Yale University's steam tunnel system, allowing covert entrance or escape unobserved.

Nicknames of selected Bonesmen
William Howard Taft: Magog
F. O. Matthiessen: Little Devil
Averell Harriman: Thor
Henry Luce: Baal
Briton Hadden: Caliban
Archibald MacLeish: Gigadibs
McGeorge Bundy: Odin
Potter Stewart: Crappo
George W. Bush: Temporary
William F. Buckley: Cheevy
Anson Phelps Stokes: Achilles
Reuben Holden: McQuilp
Charles Seymour: Machiavelli
Donald Ogden Stewart: Hellbender
John Kerry: Long Devil

-Wikipedia

8:26 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Where do people place Prof. Norman G. Finkelstein in this moral and ideological tight rope walk ? I don't know that much about him, but he appears to have become the unintentional (?) poster boy of this apparent "red-brown collision" (if it can be called that). Not to belabor the point, as this topic can obviously be grating on the nerves, but I am curious as to what people’s opinions are in this regard.

8:32 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

re spelling and meaning

Sorry, I took my cue from reading Kris Milligan's message. You have used a very different meaning of the word 'inoculate' from it's current one, actually you used both and it doesn't work.

The picture of what looks like a holocaust victim and quote from Leonard Cohen just seems completely inappropriate.

You do sound as creepy and illogocal as DE and QTB in your holocaust and related arguments, that's my contention.


Actually reading this blog is like listning to a medley of Liberace, Sex Pistols and Sabbath songs with a hip hop beat or much worse.

You're supposed to tie the whole thing together, not just spew the words on the floor and point.

Milligan thinks you're a genius, that says it all.

Illness indeed.

8:42 PM  
Blogger Jeff said...

As I understand his position, Finkelstein's rep as a "denier" is undeserved. His parents were Holocaust survivors and his estimate of the number of victims is over five million. His argument is with subsequent misappropriation of the genocide.

8:54 PM  
Anonymous Richard said...

The Holocaust didn't happen, huh?

That would be news to my father who had the misfortune of being among the first Americans into the camps.

For about 15 years I nagged him to tell me what it was like, having only seen assorted documentaries on the subject.

He refused to tell me anything. He just got the most disgusted look on his face as if the memories alone were too much to face.

About 6 months before he died he relented one tiny bit. He told me that everything in those films was consistent with what he saw.
He then said, "In all these years, I've never been able to understand how people could do that to other people."

At the time, I wished that I had an answer for him.

Now, I wish I had that answer for myself.

10:39 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anon 6:29 PM with mycoplasma (and everyone else as prep for flu and other such) do not pass go do not collect $200, go directly to Hulda Clarke/ Bob Beck zapper & magnetic pulser, and most importantly R. Rife and EM frequency therapy. Ozone, and/or food-grade hydrogen peroxide (do your research, use safely) may also help. Research whatever helped Tom Bearden get over his mycoplasma infection of so many years. Good luck.

10:48 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

And sorry I forgot to add of course colloidal silver--full spectrum antimicrobial, antifungal, antiviral, antibiotic. Again, use safely and wisely. Do your research. Try googling Mark Nine and Colloidal Silver. You can make it by the bathtub full if needed.

10:51 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This Holocaust denial theme is so sickening. They are trying to destroy the value of the ideas Jeff is putting out. Stay with the truth and leave them to their dark world. We must being doing something right.

10:58 PM  
Blogger smiths said...

so often does it seem that the vitriolic morons post anonymously,
put your money where your mouth is anonymous,
publish your name and details,

holocaust denial is pointless and stupid,
quasi-scientific conversations about the exact numbers killed are pointlesss and stupid,

it was a crime so horrible that no words can describe it,
anyone that cannot see this obvious fact is either mentally retarded or so hate filled that they are a sad waste of space

11:05 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Anonymous said...

"It's not simply a topic, it's a lure cast by Nazi apologists for the newly open minded, which exploits the fresh sense of distrust of history by suggesting this, too, must be a lie.

"I want it to be off the table here not because I consider the issue settled, though I do, but because I don't want the forum to become a place where neo-Nazis can trawl for converts."

What an obvious crock."

Jeff,

As the author of this blog, you have the right to post what you wish, allow whatever discussion you wish relating to whatever topics you wish.

However, your comments relating to holocaust discussion insult your readers intelligence. Why can't "rigorous intuition" be applied to this topic?

As one of your readers noted, "In a blog that easily accommodates arguments that Bush Sr. is a pedophile, that the moon landing was a hoax, that Cheney is a pedophile and torturer, that certain powerful elements in the US government may have successfully invoked demons, that ritual cannibalism is practised by some survivors of ritual abuse, and that discusses "ritualized homosexual rape and systemic paedophilia in the highest ranks of the US military and government", may I ask what it is about this particular historic event that makes it off limits?"

Does one automatically qualify as a fascist, Neo-Nazi, or Nazi apologist simply by questioning the veracity of a historical event?

This blanket logic smacks of the same prejudice our favourite "necons" utilize to silence opponents.

And what could one ask are you "trolling for" by placing a picture taken from the holocaust at the head of this particular blog? Are you asking us to equate the intentional extermination of the Indians with the holocaust?

I bet the present day Palestinians can relate...

Very clever.

11:44 PM  
Anonymous Still Thinking said...

War is peace. Ignorance is strength. Restricted is 'OPEN'?

"Who controls the past,' ran the Party slogan, 'controls the future: who controls the present controls the past."


Could you please explain "subsequent misappropriation of the genocide"

12:15 AM  
Anonymous Uncle $cam said...

PUBLIC LAW 95-79 [P.L. 95-79]
TITLE 50, CHAPTER 32, SECTION 1520
"CHEMICAL AND BIOLOGICAL WARFARE PROGRAM"

"The use of human subjects will be allowed for the testing of chemical and biological agents by the U.S. Department of Defense, accounting to Congressional committees with respect to the experiments and studies."

"The Secretary of Defense [may] conduct tests and experiments involving the use of chemical and biological [warfare] agents on civilian populations [within the United States]."

-SOURCE-
Public Law 95-79, Title VIII, Sec. 808, July 30, 1977, 91 Stat. 334. In U.S. Statutes-at-Large, Vol. 91, page 334, you will find Public Law 95-79. Public Law 97-375, title II, Sec. 203(a)(1), Dec. 21, 1982, 96 Stat. 1882. In U.S. Statutes-at-Large, Vol. 96, page 1882, you will find Public Law 97-375.
Your local library should have more...

12:37 AM  
Anonymous Uncle $cam said...

PUBLIC LAW 95-79 [P.L. 95-79]
TITLE 50, CHAPTER 32, SECTION 1520
"CHEMICAL AND BIOLOGICAL WARFARE PROGRAM"

"The use of human subjects will be allowed for the testing of chemical and biological agents by the U.S. Department of Defense, accounting to Congressional committees with respect to the experiments and studies."

"The Secretary of Defense [may] conduct tests and experiments involving the use of chemical and biological [warfare] agents on civilian populations [within the United States]."

-SOURCE-
Public Law 95-79, Title VIII, Sec. 808, July 30, 1977, 91 Stat. 334. In U.S. Statutes-at-Large, Vol. 91, page 334, you will find Public Law 95-79. Public Law 97-375, title II, Sec. 203(a)(1), Dec. 21, 1982, 96 Stat. 1882. In U.S. Statutes-at-Large, Vol. 96, page 1882, you will find Public Law 97-375.

12:59 AM  
Anonymous doctoradder said...

You must be doing something right, Jeff -- judging by the enemies who are spewing the venomous bile in the recent batch of posts here.

First off, to Anonymous who compared Robert Anton Wilson to Hubbard, and hardcore conspiracy doctrinaires -- HUH??? Wilson's whole schtick is "maybe logic" and "reality selection." He advocates an escape from the either/or of Aristotelian logic. The ILLUMINATUS! books and his subsequent "fiction" and "non-fiction" volumes poke fun at popular "conspiracy" theories and revel in their inconsistencies. Wilson encourages his readers to take nothing for granted, and to be wary of accepting anything -- especially his own opinions -- as the "final truth."

Wilson is the antidote for religious hucksters and paranoid demagogues who insist on interpreting all events through the narrow window of the "real" reality.

In all matters of human affairs, there are ultimately as many interpretations as there are interpreters. But beyond the Reality Selectors inside our skulls, there's still a real world to contend with -- a world where piles of dead bodies are cold facts. Reality Selection means keeping your mind open as to how they got there, and why -- not pretending they never existed in the first place.

To his great credit, Jeff's work here tends to move towards opening new avenues of interpretation. And to that end, yes, it really is his job is to "spew the words on the floor and point." Especially when some of those words may have shifting, multiple meanings; and when those words may have elusive connections that wouldn't become apparent without startling and shocking juxtapositions.

One of the reasons that this is consistently the most provocative and revelatory "conspiracy" / "deep politics" blog on the web is precisely because Jeff dares to look at the dark cracks in the sidewalk -- and he even dares to go look out into the vastness, out beyond where the sidewalk ends.

1:42 AM  
Anonymous doctoradder said...

Speaking of 'inoculation,' I was reminded of comments by Grant Morrison regarding his bizarre graphic novel THE FILTH. The comic concerns a team of agents dedicating to stopping the ugliest, most distorted aspects of the imagination from manifesting into reality.

In many ways, the comic reminds me of a fictional, funhouse reflection of what you're doing here in Rigorous Intuition, Jeff... dosing us with the run-off from the darkest undercurrents in the zeitgeist in a desperate attempt to cure what ails us.

from http://www.crackcomicks.com/the_filth_questions.htm


Morrison: "The Filth can be seen a healing inoculation of grime. I'm deliberately injecting the worst aspects of life it into my readers heads in small, humorous doses of metaphor and symbol, in an effort to help them survive the torrents of nastiness, horror and dirt we're all exposed to every day - especially in white Western cultures, whose entertainment industries peddle a mind-numbing perverted concoction of fantasy violence and degrading sexuality while living large at the expense of the poor in other countries."

2:09 AM  
Blogger Mince said...

Dear Jeff,
Well put, we are indeed being acclimatised to atrocity, just as our immune systems achieve a grudging coexistence with viruses.
Surely single deaths are easier to comprehend and respond humanely to than Stalin's statistical milions.
So little seems to change. It feels as if the apparent idealism of the past was ever a smoke screen.
Bah! Humans!!
Regards Mince

4:03 AM  
Anonymous Alice said...

I'm writing this while cringing, because it makes me very uncomfortable being quoted approvingly by individuals who are obviously racists and hate-mongers.

The issue of the Holocaust is obviously an emotional, rather than an intellectual, minefield.

Part of the responsibility for this lies with those who have promoted the idea of the Holocaust as a unique evil because of who the victims were, not because of the horror of the crime itself. I have heard a prominent rabbi claim, to enthusiastic applause, that because of what "the Jews" suffered in the Holocaust, the rest of the world has forfeited the right to criticize anything done by "the Jews" OR ISRAEL, ever.

This man is as much of a racist as those spewing their venom in the posts above. Unfortunately, there are only too many of these misguided, anguished souls, mirroring each others' hate.

As an Arab myself, my main problem with the taboos related to The Holocaust is how it has been used to justify any crime against Arab people, instead of serving as a warning to the world of the depths to which we humans can sink.

I believe that the victims of the Nazi genocide have been used cynically, chewed up yet again by the machinery of a fascist state, to fuel its progress as it swallows up other victims and advances in its quest for world domination.

How else to explain that two of the world's fascist, oppressive states, whose detention camps are filled with the stench of the blood and terror of innocents, including children, weep pious tears before the altar of The Holocaust?

All of this is to say that you were right, Jeff, and I was wrong. The issue of the Holocaust cannot be studied as a historical event, as one more genocidal frenzy such as have been committed by evil men left to impose their will in the face of a powerless, indifferent or complicit world.

The Holocaust is used with breathtaking hypocrisy to give a halo of sanctity to bloody crimes being committed today, and to the war criminals who commit them. But in trying to universalise its lessons, one is warmly welcomed into the revolting embrace of hate-maddened racists.

It's a paradox... So, like you, I prefer not to go there. Anyway, my question was an innocent one, and your response satisfied me.

4:10 AM  
Anonymous doctoradder said...

Alice,

It's hard to know what to make of your response, since it's unclear which of the countless "anonymous" posts are yours.

But it seems like it's rather late in the game to be trying to shift the argument to the politics of representation. Yes, there have been other genocides, across the centuries. There are tragedies that have been overlooked -- that are happening right now, but are buried in the back pages of unread newspapers. Denying, dismissing, or downplaying the Holocaust does not honor the countless dead Armenians, or Africans, or Cambodians, or Native Americans.

The Holocaust will always have a particular stamp of horror on it -- not just because of its scale, not because of the identity of its victims, but because of its dispassionate mechanized bureaucracy: the application of the assembly line mentality to wholesale death. The most ancient hatreds allied with the zeitgeist of 20th Century automation. The stirrings of a primordial, occult id girded itself in steel plate and iron rails, and tallied its body counts with punch-card processing adding machines.

I don't know which anonymous is you; does this line belong to you?

"Does one automatically qualify as a fascist, Neo-Nazi, or Nazi apologist simply by questioning the veracity of a historical event?"

Because the answer is "yes."

It's one thing to posit theories regarding what might happen behind the closed doors of the White House; no one truly knows what goes on there except for the small handful of people actually present.

There's a difference between speculating about the WHY behind large-scale events, as opposed to whether they happened at all.

With 9/11, it's not a question of IF the Towers went down. It's a matter of how, and more importantly, WHY. Unless you want to suggest that most of the city of New York is conspiring to tell a big lie...

To fake or to greatly exaggerate the tragedy of the Holocaust would require the collusion of countless millions of co-conspirators -- the liberators from Allied armies, the media of the whole planet, and the families of the victims.

And that's a level of paranoia most cannot aspire to...

...unless you're willing to assume the collusion of The Jews, as a race, as a unit.

And if you can assume that -- well, that takes us back to one. You, or whoever wrote that, whoever is ready to swallow that one -- I'd guess they're inclined to believe that whopper because at heart they're probably a fascist or a neo-Nazi.

Or maybe they just have even more of a problem coping with "reality" than all of us tinfoil-hatted flakes out here on the fringes.

Enough of this subject, please. Forever.

6:18 AM  
Blogger ericswan said...

Anon...it doesn't take "genius" to be evil. The conspiracies you talk about is a dog ear on the page.

6:59 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"doctoradder said...

Enough of this subject, please. Forever."

I agree wholeheartedly....and I agree with Alice's previous comments...100%!

I am the anonymous one that posted the comment stating "Does one automatically qualify as a fascist, Neo-Nazi, or Nazi apologist simply by questioning the veracity of a historical event?",

...and the answer is unequivocally "NO".

Everyone knows you can't even discuss the problem in Palestine without being labeled as an anti-semite. This makes the situation there even more profoundly tragic.

I am neither an apologist, a revisionist, a racist nor a hatemonger, where this, or any other , topic is concerned. And I certainly do not hate jews.

A rigorous intuition, applied to this, or any other topic, is healthy.

However, selective discrimination where arguments pro. and con., relate to any healthy discussion (also called censorship) is not.

And by the way, how is "doctoradder"
any different from "anonymous"?

8:44 AM  
Anonymous little man said...

"People should get beat up,
for stating their beleifs, "
-They Might Be Giants

9:02 AM  
Anonymous #1 sniffer said...

Anonymous poster of 10:14 AM said to Jeff "Thank you for mentioning the genocide perpetrated by the British on the original North Americans. The British, historically a predatory culture, are the supreme rip-off artists of the past milenia." A bit understated but I agree with the sentiment.

The empire-obsessed and genocidal racist British were also behind the deliberate wide dissemination of opium in the 18th and 19th centuries to a then peaceful China (as well as to several other nations being exploited by them like India, and basically anyone unfortunate enough to have contact with the British by definition soon sees exploitation, and eventually significant bloodshed. The British opium dealing finally led to the two tragic opium wars in China, from which that nation has not even now recovered from.

The British also tried to completely exterminate the Irish from Ireland in the 1840's, either by death by the manipulation of a famine, and/or by stealing their land or of then evictions and forcing their emigration, in the famous potatoe famine (thus shining a bit of light on the historical hatred of the Irish for the English). Such was the evil that in a country of about 4 million before the famine, less than half remained after 5 years.

They were also the authors of the massive deliberate bloodlettings when no war objective was served by it, by Churchill and others in WWI (Tipperary being one example), and of course Churchill had the full support of his government. No doubt I am leaving much off.

Of course it was British offspring in this country rich with opium blood-money loot from China by the British East India Tea Co's opium trade and through families such as the Russells who founded Yale and the Skull and Bones.

And these pure blue-blood-line relatives of theirs finished evicting then killing off most American Indians (and resettling the rest into small and undesired lands) and who to this day still traffic in opium and other narcotics to our children and those of other countries too. They have a monopoly on the illegal drug trade and well as the legal one, commonly known as the pharmaceutical industry.

The Brits also were the undisputed kings of the human slave trade and still are, and it is this impulse to so easily enslave anyone if given the opportunity, that is so repulsive.

Recall it was the English who centuries ago regularly raided Africa and indiscriminately kidnapped hundreds of shiploads of blacks into slavery for the American Colonies and who institutionalized slavery here, who sold blacks in open air markets, and whose offspring in our country, the Bonesmen and their cronies, still do the same in the Middle East to fill up places like Guantanamo and other fake prisons, that are more accurately the propaganda and mind control centers where assassins and death squads are made, to perpetuate needless wars and thus underwrite their war-based industries.

And the Brits (with the Bonesmen) aren't yet done in Africa, for they're doing to black Africans in the late 20th and 21st centuries what their anscestors did to the American Indians in the 18th century.

And they cling to their old bad habits like using small pox (even though small-pox was believed eradicated, they re-spread it in Africa in the early 70's, then in the late 70's they sponsored through the UN a free small-pox vaccination program with vaccines that included the Aids virus, according to evidence of Dr. Leonard Horowitz. I recommend his very detailed lectures on this, available for free download through bit torrents).

In addition, the Royal Family's (particularly Prince Phillip's) efforts to save the African environment (who said it was under any threat?) are nothing more than pretexts to justify the natives' evictions from their lands, their forced resettlement and herding into big refugee camps of genocide where they either are starved to death, or find their demise through vaccination with disease or other toxins, or attacked by British-trained death squads pretending to be guerrilla movements, and are regularly assaulted, raped, and traumatized especially if there happens to be a UN presence nearby.

The numbers being killed annually are not being publicized but are huge, and who knows maybe one of these days, our turn will come. The Katrina aftermath seemed like a dress rehearsal.

So Gouda's quote of Churchill above from 1937, hits the nail right on the head:

"I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place."

That is quite a confession, but they don't sound to me like the words of one from a "higher-grade race," but of the contrary if anything.

9:10 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Completely OT:

Jeff, Castro is running propaganda linking Bush and Luis Posada Carriles.

You can see pics here.

9:46 AM  
Anonymous Dugoboy said...

ok, it seems the hole with which they are trying to dig us into is with the nebulous idea that the holocaust never happened. or it did happen but it was only 100,000 people. all of which can't really be proven in a single comment post.

this topic is a good discussion for the forums or in the comments section for a post dedicated to that subject. BUT for any other place. all it does is DISTRACT us from what was really being talked about here: death and destruction of human life displayed in all corners, that can be easily seen and soon becomes a heavy psychologial weapon (innoculation used as a very active verb) as people must further entrench themselves into cognitive dissonance. so that when the tanks are coming rolling down the streets we won't think much of it. its to protect us from the terrorists, oh and what fantastically vague term that is.

11:00 AM  
Blogger RoadsEnd said...

Skull and Bones was founded in 1832 by William Huntington Russell and Alphonso Taft, two students who were not admitted into Phi Beta Kappa and who furthermore disliked a Phi Beta Kappa decision that took that organization public in 1831. The first Skull and Bones class, or "cohort," was the very next year, 1832-33.

Whomever posted that at Wikipaedia is incorrect. Both Russell and Taft were members of PBK. As were many Bones. This is typically disinfo to distance the truth of the matter of secrecy. PBK was a firerunner of Bones.

Peace,

More Comments later,

Peace,
Kris Millegan

11:01 AM  
Anonymous doctoradder said...

Anonymous,

The difference is, there's only one "doctoradder" posting here (at least so far), so the arguments are all coming from one person, limiting the guesswork as to who said what.

And, come on, really. It's been several years since the mainstream in this country thought Israel had the unquestionable right of way through Palestine. There's generally a broader awareness of the complexities of the situation and of the history of the region. Many, many people have commented on the plight of the Palestinians without being labeled "anti-Semites." (It helps if you don't assume that the state of Israel automatically equates to "The Jews." Try it.)

And believe it or not, there really is a huge difference between presenting a difference of opinion as to why a murder happened, or who's responsible, and who might be profiting from the death -- than in saying the body was never really there in the first place.

11:06 AM  
Blogger nunnatsunega said...

Sometimes interesting the synchronicity of the posts and the "stuff" I've been digging into lately...I'm studying early Korean/American relations and of course that leads into the opium trade in China, Teddy Roosevelt and American racist policies...the work of Gustav Le Bon...earlier John Stuart Mill...that great champion of freedom...except where it came to his involvement with the drug trade on behalf of the British, etc. And Churchill...yes...dog's in the manger...and Churchill is of American Indian descent (Haudenosaunee) on his mother's side...argh...what a tangle.

11:44 AM  
Anonymous doctoradder said...

I could just as easily take the name doctoradder as the other doctoradder did. See, using a name does not make you identifiable unless you are registered as a blogger on this site.

12:26 PM  
Anonymous paul said...

Like Rivero says, "Truth needs no laws to defend it". If the history text book version of the holocaust were true then laws against claiming otherwise wouldnt be necessary.

If someone wants to claim they chop their arms off every night and they grow back in the morning you dont pass laws making that claim illegal, call them names, extradite them and throw them in jail. You just ignore them.

People also use the false label of "denier" on these people instead of say revisionist. Noone is claiming 0 Jews died during WW2 and everyone is imagining it. They are questioning the number of dead and how they died, and that is a valid argument.

There is an ever growing body of evidence making a mockery of the claim that 6 million Jews were mass gassed with hydrogen cyanide and all the official history proponents have in their defence is verbal abuse and threats of jail.

Just one such example is that the so called "gas chamber" at the Auschwitz museum is an admitted fake built after the war as a "replica" of the alleged "real" one. There is plenty more if you can be bothered to look.

History is written by the victors, dont believe everything you read in a history book.

12:47 PM  
Anonymous Richard said...

Of course, by mentioning the Holocaust, we also open up the Allied response to what they found in the camps.
According to James Bacque in his book Other Losses, Eisenhower created a new classification for POW's called "Disarmed Enemy Forces" which allowed the Americans to remove them from the protection of the Geneva Convention.
They were then forced into barbed wire enclosed fields where they were essentially left to starve.
Anyone bringing them food was shot.
Of course, the Nazis forced to suffer in this manner were the foot soldiers & grunts. The upper echelon of command who possessed useful information were shuttled out in Operation Paperclip.
It appears that America has always been somewhat selective in its methods of handing out justice.

1:11 PM  
Anonymous sleazegrinder said...

...if Avian Flu is a weapon of either design or opportunity, its intended victims are also American. Because at the top of the food chain, where it's whole nations that are consumed, the fattest and most tender of all is naturally also on the menu.

Possible worse case scenario:

What the authorities will do in case of a Avian Flu outbreak / quarantine:

Model State Emergency Health Powers Act

When federal and state public health officials convince your Governor to declare a “public health” emergency, they want to be able to use the “state militia” to:

Take control of all roads leading into and out of your cities and state;

Seize your house, car, telephones, computers, food, fuel, clothing, firearms and alcoholic beverages for their own use (and not be held liable if these actions result in the destruction of your personal property);

Arrest, imprison and forcibly examine, vaccinate and medicate you and your children without your consent (and not be held liable if these actions result in your death or injury).

http://www.909shot.com/ActionAlerts/what_you_need_to_know.htm

You cannot invade the mainland United States. There will be a rifle behind every blade of grass.

-Japanese Admiral Yamamoto.

How many mini Waco's are the "cabal" prepared to deal with?

1:53 PM  
Anonymous sleazegrinder said...

Alice said:
How else to explain that two of the world's fascist, oppressive states, whose detention camps are filled with the stench of the blood and terror of innocents...

One might as well add Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iran, Saudi Arabia, et al. to this list of fascist, oppressive states.(I am part Lebanese, by the way.)

Personally, I am tired of this whole endless and age old Zionist versus Islamofascist / Nazi nonsesnse, rubbish and imbecility. If these are still the driving force behind present day events, then they can all just rot in the hell they so rightly deserve and leave the rest of us in peace--to live out our lives without this seemingly ceaseless and utter waste of time that's been plaguing the planet and the region for decades. There are no "good guys' or "bad guys" in this equation. The only victims are innocent women and children. In my less politically correct and angry moments, I am reminded of the lyrics to a certain Stormtroopers of Death (SOD) song, but I'd rather not go there.(that track is really stupid and moronic anyway--and appropriately so--just like this whole debate.)

2:43 PM  
Blogger doctoradder said...

Thanks for pointing that out, "doctoradder."

And that's for identifying yourself as a troll.

2:55 PM  
Blogger doctoradder said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

3:02 PM  
Anonymous Alice said...

Doctoradder, in the blog comments section, I use "Alice", and in the ezboard, "Alice" was already taken, so I use "Alicethecurious". That's it. I'm not here to play stupid mind games, I'm here to exchange views and information. Why are you here?

As for the comments by "sleazegrinder", Syria, Egypt, et al are indeed oppressive and dictatorial, but they are truly small potatoes, even in the region.

In fact, the Egyptian government answers only to their American daddy, who lets them do pretty much as they please within their own borders, except when the US needs to yank their chain a little to remind them of their lapdog status.

The US and Israel both present a grave, global danger, because both are super-militarized, belligerent, racist/supremacist states, rapacious for the resources of others, and are accountable to no one.

I'm not sure what you meant by "Zionist vs Islamofascist/Nazi". Is that like "you're either with us or you're with the terrorists"? Either you're a Zionist or you're an Islamofascist/Nazi?

I think both (all three?) of those groups would really feel comfortable with your insulting and false premise. I would argue that all three share more similarities than differences, and none share anything with me.

By the way, Richard, that thing from FAIR was just fascinating; it should be printed and handed out to co-workers, friends, etc. I'll email it to my friends.

3:48 PM  
Anonymous sleazegrinder said...

Syria, Egypt, et al are indeed oppressive and dictatorial, but they are truly small potatoes, even in the region.

I'm sure prisoners held unjustly and tortured in Syrian and Egyptian prisons would appreciate this analysis.

I'm not sure what you meant by "Zionist vs Islamofascist/Nazi". Is that like "you're either with us or you're with the terrorists"? Either you're a Zionist or you're an Islamofascist/Nazi?

Well, I certainly don't see any moderate elements causing these problems.

I think both (all three?) of those groups would really feel comfortable with your insulting and false premise.

The US and Israel both present a grave, global danger, because both are super-militarized, belligerent, racist/supremacist states, rapacious for the resources of others, and are accountable to no one.

Agreed. However, it is not an insulting or false premise. Are not The Protocols of the Elders of Zion readily available at any respectable hotel in the Middle East ? Egyptian state television recently broadcast an entire 'documentary' series on the Protocols. The 2005 Syrian edition of the Protocols authorized by the Syrian Ministry of Information was featured at the Cairo International Book Fair. These paramilitary Islamist groups, both Sunni and Shi'ite, have saturated themselves in Nazi racial propaganda. 38 years of Occupation have aided in the complete and utter warping of their minds. The region is steeped in anti-Semitism. The distinction between Jew and Zionist has been eviscerated.

David Duke just went on a 'diplomatic' mission to Syria a few months ago, where he probably was also pushing his new book Jewish Supremacism: My Awakening to the Jewish Question and passing out ZOG literature.

I think all the above may qualify as..." belligerent, racist/supremacist..." and require serious introspection.

I would argue that all three share more similarities than differences, and none share anything with me.

Agreed. None with me either. Like I said earlier, this "debate" is a waste of time.

What sick, ridiculous, puppets we are, and
what a gross, little stage we dance on.


-Andrew Kevin Walker (Seven)

4:35 PM  
Anonymous starroute said...

There is an implied power gradient that explains a lot about why people tend to find certain conspiracy theories acceptable and others not.

The conspiracy theories featured at Rigorous Intuition are generally those which assume the rich and powerful regularly get together behind closed doors to conspire against the rest of us in order to maintain their power (possibly also engaging in bloodcurdling rites towards the same end.)

Those which are not favored are those which make the assumption that the poor and defenseless (workers, blacks, gays, whatever) are plotting together en masse to overthrow and destroy their natural superiors for no better reason that mere envy of what they cannot achieve through honest means.

I would suggest that the first questions which should be asked about any conspiracy theory are (1) Who is promoting it? (2) What is their motivation? (3) How plausible are motives that they ascribe to the alleged conspirators?

There is an interesting piece online called A Brief History of Holocaust Denial. It states:

There is a fairly clear historical development of contemporary Holocaust denial. Surprisingly, its roots extend far beyond the Holocaust itself and may be found in the work of historical revisionists in Europe, principally France, and in the United States who set out to absolve Germany of responsibility for World War I.

Paul Rassinier, formerly a "political" prisoner at Buchenwald, was one of the first European writers to come to the defense of the Nazi regime with regard to their "extermination" policy. . . . Given his experience and his antisemitism, he embarked upon a writing career which, over the next 30 years, would place him at the center of Holocaust denial. In 1948 he published Le Passage de la Ligne, Crossing the Line, and, in 1950, The Holocaust Story and the Lie of Ulysses. In these early works he attempted to make two main arguments: first, while some atrocities were committed by the Germans, they have been greatly exaggerated and, second, that the Germans were not the perpetrators of these atrocities -- the inmates who ran the camps instigated them. In 1964 he published The Drama of European Jewry, a work committed to debunking what he called "the genocide myth." The major focus of this book was the denial of the gas chambers in the concentration camps, the denial of the widely accepted figure of 6 million Jews exterminated and the discounting of the testimony of the perpetrators following the war. These three have emerged in recent years as central tenets of Holocaust denial. . . .

As Lipstadt observes, the primary link between these early revisionists and modern deniers was the U.S. historian, Harry Elmer Barnes,the first American historian to take up the theme of Holocaust denial. During World War I he was an outspoken, even vitriolic, supporter of the Allied effort. After the war, however, he became highly pro-German and seemed intent on defending the German people against any responsibility for the war. While he blamed France and Russia for starting the war, he stopped short, in his early work, of blaming the Jews, as Kaiser Wilhelm had done. Barnes early work was fairly respectable historical analysis despite the fact that his agenda was a clear denunciation of U.S. foreign policy during World War I. . . . It was not until the late 1950s that his analysis extended to the issue of atrocities against Jews. This shift in his agenda coincides with his discovery of French popular historian, Paul Rassinier, and the American revisionist, David Leslie Hoggan.

Hoggan's dissertation at Harvard was a revisionist work in which he blamed Britain for World War II and presented Hitler as a victim of Allied manipulation. Throughout the work, Hitler is presented as conciliatory, reasonable and sincere in his attempts to avoid war. Barnes encouraged Hoggan to have the work published. After extensive re-writing, it was published, in Germany in 1961, under the title, The Forced War. The title reveals the thrust of the book -- World War II was forced upon Hitler. An important concern of the book was to downplay Nazi atrocities against Jews. . . .

One overarching characteristic of all deniers, the one characteristic which binds them all together, is antisemitism. Regardless of the language used to clothe their attacks upon memory and truth, it is the language of hate and fear. Regardless of pretensions of scholarship and even underlying traces of real scholarship, deniers ultimately come to rely upon the least respectable of all strategies -- stereotyping. The works of Rassinier, Barnes, Hoggan and App consistently fall back upon stereotypic images of the Jewish people which have been perpetuated for centuries and which show little sign of diminishing with the current crop of deniers.


Among other things, it's obvious from this that holocaust denial starts immediately after World War II and that even its fully-developed form goes back to the early 60's -- well before Israel adopted the hyper-aggressive foreign policy which has relied on the holocaust as a justification.

To the extent that holocaust denial was not merely a new form of anti-semitism, it has been closely connected with right-wing attempts to smear Roosevelt and the New Deal. For example, I first came up with the page I quoted above while checking out the list of correspondents of General Robert E. Wood.

Ropert E. Wood -- the chairman of Sears, Roebuck and president of the America First Committee in 1940 -- was a close friend of the Bush family, whose daughter married Wiliam Stamps Farish Jr. In 1955, Wood founded the American Security Council, which has been closely tied to the misdeeds of the military-industrial complex for the last 50 years.

Wood also corresponded extensively through the 40's and 50's not only with American fascists and with extreme right-wingers like Joe McCarthy, H.L. Hunt, and Henry Regnery but also with anti-Roosevelt revisionist historians of every stripe, including John T. Flynn, George Racey Jordan, and Harry Elmer Barnes.

This is the background of holocaust revisionism -- and its agenda is no different than the agenda of the Dulles Brothers, Averell Harriman, and Prescott Bush in the 1920's and 1930's.

5:59 PM  
Anonymous Orgonite said...

Anon @ 6:29 PM, with the mycoplasma infection: you probably do have chemtrail sickness, but there is help in the form of an inexpensive ChemBuster HomeoHerbal formula , orgonite, and bioelectrification zappers. Please treat yourself quickly.

-Peace

6:31 PM  
Blogger 23skidoo said...

Whoever "anonymous" or doctoradder posted the disgusting Holocaust denying comments is clearly a newbie or otherwise failed to read and understand my past comments on the topic. One of these cowardly anonymous posters also assails Mr. Wells' spelling with his own bad spelling!! One "facr," one where innoculate is misspelled after pointing it out (unless he's going for the irony factor), "readers intelligence???" I question the intelligence of those who are themselves just as selective about attacking the Shoah.

It's a question of epistemology: How do we know anything? These days, most of what we "know" comes from textbooks, teachers, books, and second-hand sources, not from personal experience. Therefore, on what grounds can be know what to accept and what not to? What fits with out intuition? What "feels" right? Why not question Christianity? Why not question teh existence of Baffin Bay?

The point is that both those who deny the Holocaust and those who defend and believe in it have reasons for doing so. I have said before that I had family in Europe in the '40s, and I'm willing to bet that most people of European Jewish descent lost relatives there. So when people deny that it happened, they may as well be denying that our ancestors died en mass--perhaps it was a coincidence? Mass suicide? Or am I lying that I had family back in Europe?

Second of all, non-Jews sometiems reveal themselves by their ignorance of the many splits in modern Judaism. Let's say for example that my mother converted in a liberal ceremony. She may feel she is Jewish, as might her children, but to the Orthodox rabinnate that is part of the Israeli government, she is not, and neither are her children. So when you say "the Jews," do you mean Israeli orthodox? American liberals? Hasidics? "Jews" for Jesus?

Is Mormonism the same religion as Baptism, unitarianism, Lutheranism, Eastern Orthodoxy, and Catholicism?

Some topics cannot be discussed because they naturally dispel objectivity. This may be due to emotional or epistemic content. I say that the Holocaust is one of them. Now when we have people like Hilberg who returned to Germany with the liberation forces to document what happened as best he could, either he and all those who survived the horror are liars, and some deniers say that they are, but I guarantee you that virtually nobody who lived through that or knows people who did will give that claim a moment's thought. In a way, there is more evidence for the Shoah than there is for the existence of Jesus.

Furthermore, I contest any descriptions that use the term "Jews" and "Zionists" interchangeably, as many liberal American Jews are definitely not Zionists. By "Zionist," do you mean somebody who believes that all Jews should end the diaspora by going to the "Jewish land?" If so, all "Zionists" should be citizens of Israel. Are you then a "Zionist" if you simply support Israeli politics or its right simply to exist? Perhaps some "Jews" cannot support an Israeli government where the democratically elected institutions insist that children of non-orthodox converts are not Jews, while Jew-haters rely on the old "one drop" rule that applied in the American south during the Jim Crow laws-- "One drop" and you're "contaminated" and of "impure" heritage. Once that happens, everything you say can be questioned--because you're "Jewish." Because you lie. Because what you believe about history and religion is wrong. Because you butter your matzah with gentile blood. Because you are assimilationist, that means you are a "Zionist" fifth columnist.

People who reduce the argument and then deny the Holocaust and argue that only "Jews" and "Zionists" play the Holocaust like a "race card" in the courtroom enrage me. To some extent, everything we take as knowledge or information may be questioned, but that does not mean it ought to be. A person must ask himself why he questions one thing that another clings to desperately. A person questioning such a thing must be aware that the consequences will be pain for the "believer," as I said, making objectivity impossible. There is also a psychological principle known as "blaming the victim."

And here, while we debate the veracity of one historical event, we ignore the disputed Armenian massacres in Turkey, which is ironically similarly denied by many Turks and the government does not recognize it. When such a thing is claimed or denied, both sides have a vested interest. The important question is why? What is the nature of that interest? Most deniers are Turks, feeling that the Armenians are playing a role of victim to elicit pity and special preference, and that lies should garner no support--to lie about mass death is reprehensible. But what if the massacres were undocumented? Can we wait 60 years and then say it never happened?

I never want to write about this again, but I know that I will.

6:42 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

To the person suspecting chemtrail source of mycoplasm infection:

You need to confirm that the flights you suspected were really spraying chemtrails or not

Lots of ways to get that info:

1. get schedules all airlines for the times & day(s) in question and using a globe and string, mark projected paths using point of origin and destination.

2. Go big. If as you say, you know many others suffering from suspected airborne contaminant in chemtrail, why don't you all buy any of the services from http://www.airnavsystems.com/anlv/
Live Flight Tracker Features:

Real-time graphical flight tracker of airline and general aviation flights
All USA and Canada flights tracked (other regions included)
View photos of tracked aircraft
Link to FAA's Aircraft Registration Database
Renewed graphics and interface
Live Airport Information
Only application on the market with Multi-Window flight tracking
The cheapest and most transparent price on the market
Information on planned and landed traffic
All times in Local and UTC formats
Blocked flights shown
Airport inbound and outbound flights in different colors
Just an Internet connection needed
Absolutely no restrictions on airports and flights tracked

If the flights you observed as suspected chemtrail spraying do match up to scheduled flights you can find out where that plane is, then go observe to see if it has sprayers mounted on it. Then do detective work, ask ground crew, flight crew, etc that you saw the plane spraying..

Sounds like a lot of work, but if you guys are really as ill as you say, i imagine you would go to the ends of the earth to find out what the hell is going on.

good luck

6:51 PM  
Anonymous Orgonite said...

You need to confirm that the flights you suspected were really spraying chemtrails or not

WTF? Why does anybody need to "confirm" anything? You think you can take that stack of data to your congressperson? The EPA? The FAA? Who?

You can stop chemtrails directly with a simple substance anybody can make in their own backyard called orgonite. It really works. Try it out.

If you don't want to go to all the trouble of collecting the materials and pouring resin, you can buy them from vendors listed on that link, or you can request free orgonite from a lady in Texas who will ship a few small pieces ("peaces") to you for free just for the asking.

Directly fixing the problem seems to make more sense than going on a wild goose chase of pointless evidence-gathering for a "day in court" you'll never get. Think for a minute about the callous decisions, the command-and-control structure, and the logistics required to operate a 24/7 day/night global chemtrail spraying operation over virtually every populated area of the planet for the past several years. How do you, with flight tables, stop a cabal which perpetrates such massive crimes against humanity? You don't. We have to fight them on whatever front we can, and right now it looks like etheric atmospheric balancing is what's working, so let's do that.

-Peace

7:37 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Austria was threatened with severe sanctions by the EU for electing a partly neo nazi government (the leader of the Freedom party, Heider was forced to step down). Yet you can get 10 years in jail for questioning the number of jews killed in WWII.

That is monumental hypocrisy and a clear indication of something to hide. The reason they have arrested Zundel and Irvine is that they have nazi sympathies and it allows creepy characters like Jeff the unco-ordinated blogger to scatter gun accusations of nazi and fascist.

8:02 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Starroute and ObieJargon,

Why do you not take a step back and let the facts speak for themselves regarding the holocaust...WHATEVER they may be?

Oh, wait....I forgot. It's now illegal to do so. The facts are in jail. The revisionists have been "revised".

The two major works used to discuss holocaust denial on A Brief History of Holocaust Denial that Starroute so intelligently cites were written by jewish authors. So....using your basic "rules of inquiry" let's ask the following:

"(1) Who is promoting it? (2) What is their motivation? (3) How plausible are motives that they ascribe to the alleged conspirators?"

As Willy Wonka once said. "Hold it! Reverse that!".

10:08 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

(kei & yuri send--)

We had this thought that we eventually dismissed as too fleshless and too close to outright anti-Semitism, back when that totally awful waste of celluloid Eli Roth's Hostel was being advertised in front of children every ten seconds with totally Pharisaic warnings about offensive content.
When we saw the first sign of it, we totally misunderstood and were very hopeful, because we thought a Hollywood director (with support from Tarantino!) had decided to do a well-distributed take on the fundamental evil of torture. A smashing attack on US policy.
It was perfectly clear soon that this was the kind of thriller or horror flick that is distantly descended fom pornography, where Ron Jeremy is replaced with "Saw" or "Hannibal" or whatever and boringly plainly set-out sex is replaced with insulting depictions of human privation.
What is the point of all this?
Well, it's pointless; but externally, the pointlessness is its point. There is no ideology or conceptual barb to object to.
And in the course of battering with brutality, you are getting used to it. Which is the ultimate point.
Of course this means we are certain that Hostel is a deeply politically biased bit of propaganda, and our reason for hating it does not go beyond it being the wrong ideology.

10:16 PM  
Anonymous Richard said...

I think my the US government just broke my stupid-ometer.

Operation Swarmer?
More like Operation Asswarmer.

1500 soldiers into an area with 1500 residents?

For 6 weapons caches?

I think that their little reality creation machine isn't living up to its PR.

Is there anything real about this administration of fake hunters & fake cowboys?

Un-effing-believable.


http://www.back-to-iraq.com/archives/2006/03/operation_overblown.php

— Operation Swarmer is turning out to be much less than meets the eye, or the television camera, for that matter.

Iraqi and Coalition forces launched Operation Iraqi Freedom’s largest air assault operation in southern Salah Ad Din province March 16. Named Operation Swarmer, the joint operation’s mission was to clear a suspected insurgent operating area northeast of Samarra.

Operation Swarmer included more than 1,500 troops from the Iraqi Army’s 4th Division, the U.S. 101st Airborne Division and 101st Combat Aviation Brigade. The Soldiers isolated the objective area in a combined air and ground assault.

More than 50 Attack and assault aircraft and 200 tactical vehicles participated in the operation. Troops from the Iraqi Army’s 4th Division, the “Rakkasans” from the 187th Infantry Regiment and the “Hunters” from the 9th Cavalry Regiment assaulted multiple objectives. Forces from the Iraqi 2nd Commando Brigade then completed a ground infiltration to secure numerous structures in the area.
Initial reports indicate a number of weapons caches were captured, containing artillery shells, IED-making materials and military uniforms. Iraqi and Coalition troops also detained 41 suspected insurgents.

That sounds exciting! But according to a colleague of mine from TIME who traveled up there today on a U.S. embassy-sponsored trip, there are no insurgents, no fighting and 17 of the 41 prisoners taken have already been released after just one day. The “number of weapons caches” equals six, which isn’t unusual when you travel around Iraq. They’re literally everywhere.

(Digression: Just to clear some things up, “air assault” does not equal air strikes. There are no JDAMs being dropped, and there are no fixed-wing aircraft involved at all, except maybe for surveillance. An air assault is the 101st Airborne’s way of inserting troops into a battlespace. There is so far no evidence of bombardment of any kind. Also, it’s a telling example of how “well” things are going in Iraq that after three years, the U.S. is still leading the fight and conducting sweeps in an area that has been swept/contained/pacfied/cleared five or six times since 2004. How long before the U.S. has to come back again?)

As noted, about 1,500 troops were involved, 700 American and 800 Iraqi. But get this: in the area they’re scouring there are only about 1,500 residents. According to my colleague and other reporters who were there, not a single shot has been fired.

“Operation Swarmer” is really a media show. It was designed to show off the new Iraqi Army — although there was no enemy for them to fight. Every American official I’ve heard has emphasized the role of the Iraqi forces just days before the third anniversary of the start of the war. That said, one Iraqi role the military will start highlighting in the next few days, I imagine, is that of Iraqi intelligence. It was intel from the Iraqi military intelligence and interior ministry that the U.S. says prompted this Potemkin operation. And it will be the Iraqi intel that provides the cover for American military commanders to throw up their hands and say, “well, we thought bad guys were there.”

10:19 PM  
Anonymous starroute said...

anonymous 8:02 -

It may be an indication of something to hide -- but that something is entirely connected with Austrias own lingering Nazi tendencies and has nothing to do with the authenticity of the holocaust.

I may be wrong about this, but my recollection is that Austria was considered, at least to a degree, to be a victim of German conquest rather than a collaborator and so was not de-Nazified as thoroughly as Germany itself. There are thus people and sympathies that slipped through that rather loose net and still need to be concealed.

10:23 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Micahel Piper makes an interesting point regarding the holocaust, and the possible tie-in of the Mossad to the assassination of JFK...

"Auschwitz - The Final Count

A thought-provoking new anthology edited by English historian Vivian Bird casts stark new light on what really happened at Auschwitz during World War II. As the evidence shows, the official "facts" just don't add up.

In the summer of 1997 I was invited to speak at a California college seminar about my book, Final Judgment, which contends that Israel's intelligence agency, the Mossad, played a front-line role in the JFK assassination conspiracy alongside the CIA. Almost instantaneously I was hit by a media barrage orchestrated by the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) of B'nai B'rith, a lobby for Israel.

The ADL told the press I was "a Holocaust denier" and, for that reason alone, I should not be allowed to discuss my book (which, incidentally, never once mentions the Holocaust). Evidently the ADL was determined to shift the focus away from what my book really does address, so they determined the best way to discredit me was to smear me as "a Holocaust denier" (which I am not).

The ADL's tactic succeeded, setting off a firestorm of opposition-a "holocaust," so to speak-and the seminar was canceled, illustrating one point most clearly: The Holocaust has become a powerful propaganda tool for the state of Israel.

And what is important to remember is this: What did-or did not-happen at the Auschwitz concentration camp in Poland is, in fact, integral to the foundation of the basic story of the Holocaust.

Auschwitz is central to the Holocaust legend. If it can be proved that the official stories we have been told about Auschwitz are not true, the entire fabric of the Holocaust ultimately has to unravel. What, then, did happen at Auschwitz?

On April 18, 1945, in the immediate aftermath of World War II, The New York Times reported that 4 million people died at Auschwitz. This "fact" was reported over and over again during the next half-century, without being questioned.

However, on January 26, 1995, commemorating the 50th anniversary of the Auschwitz liberation, both The Washington Post and The New York Times itself reported that the Polish authorities had determined that, at most, 1.5 million people (of all races and religions)-not "4 million"-died at Auschwitz of all causes, including natural causes."

There's more at:

http://www.ariannaonline.com/
forums/archive/index.php/
t-34794.html

10:28 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

There's much more to Auschwitz than the changing numbers. The essays in Bird's volume each provide a uniquely different facet to the overall problem:

* The Auschwitz Lie by Thies Christophersen is an insider's view of Auschwitz. The German author, an agrarian, was sent to Auschwitz, not as an inmate, but as a scientist researching the development of synthetic rubber. Working side by side with inmate staff, Christophersen saw, firsthand, day-to-day life at Auschwitz and, in postwar years, was astounded to hear the stories of "gassings" and all the tall tales that we today associate with Auschwitz.

His essay, The Auschwitz Lie, first published in German in 1973, caused great consternation. However, Christophersen would not back down, and, as a consequence, he was variously fined or imprisoned for daring to tell his eyewitness account. Those accustomed to "docu-drama" renditions of Auschwitz will find a new perspective in Christophersen's report.

* Zyklon B, Auschwitz, and the Trial of Dr. Bruno Tesch is the second feature in Bird's anthology. Written by a veteran chemist, the late Dr. William Lindsey, this is a carefully documented demolition of the war crimes trial of Dr. Tesch, who was ultimately convicted and hanged. The unfortunate Tesch was co-owner of a company which bought in bulk (from the manufacturers) and then supplied (as the middleman) to the German concentration camp authorities the now-infamous Zyklon B pesticide.

Although we have been told Zyklon B was used to gas millions of Jews to death, Lindsey shows that the compound was used as an insecticide and disinfectant to delouse not only the Auschwitz inmates but also SS members running the camp and to fumigate their clothes, bunkhouses etc. Zyklon B, in short, was used to maintain and sustain human life-not to end it. Lindsey's essay examines the fraudulent evidence and testimony in the Tesch trial and eviscerates another critical element of not only the Auschwitz legend, but of the Holocaust story as a whole.

* Inside the Auschwitz "Gas Chambers" is by Fred A. Leuchter, a spunky American engineer once known as perhaps the foremost U.S. authority on the mechanics of judicial execution. Leuchter describes how he conducted scientific experiments on the structures at Auschwitz that court historians say were used to exterminate vast numbers of people-the infamous gas chambers. Leuchter concluded no such gassings could have ever taken place as the official story describes. For daring to present his findings-the only known such study carried out at the gas chambers-Leuchter was relentlessly harassed. But his point was made. His findings cut right to the core of the matter of Auschwitz.

* The final essay is Why Is "The Holocaust" Important? written by TBR publisher Willis A. Carto, who points out that the Holocaust has become a lucrative industry unto itself, used as a highly effective political tool to not only extort billions of German and American taxpayer dollars to Israel but also to force the United States to conduct its foreign policy in a fashion beneficial to Tel Aviv (and contrary to U.S. national interests). Carto's essay puts the Holocaust in perspective.

Thus, there's clearly much more to the story of Auschwitz and the Holocaust than meets the eye. The facts assembled paint a perhaps much more interesting story about what really did happen.

Bird's book will, in many ways, very much serve as the final judgment on Auschwitz. Auschwitz: The Final Count will outrage many-but as Bird puts it: "For those who care to investigate the facts-not the myths-about the events of World War II, this volume should put at least some of the major legends of the Holocaust to rest."

10:38 PM  
Anonymous starroute said...

anonymous 10:08 -

You cited my three questions in a context where they scarcely apply, since neither holocause denial nor refutation of holocaust denial is a conspiracy.

But to take the issue you pose far more seriously than it deserves, I am willing to try considering the question of motivation.

So -- on the part of the holocaust deniers we have a range of motivations including anti-semitism, a desire to absolve Germany and Hitler of blame, and (in the case of the Americans) an urge to pile on Franklin Roosevelt by demonstrating that World War II was not a "just war."

And on the part of the refuters we have -- oh, would you say maybe a desire to not have to go through that whole death camp thing again just because it was swept under the rug the first time?

The thing is, you know, that if the holocaust never happened, it should be easy to disprove it. There would be documents, eyewitnesses from various of the parties involved, photographs, and so forth. Instead, all you have is a handful of claims involving absence of evidence in some limited areas, plus a dogged insistance that a whole lot of people are just making shit up.

This discussion reminds me more and more of the creation-evolution debate. Creation *has* no real evidence on its side, so all it can do is pick at a few weak spots in the evolutionary framework and yell a lot about evolutionists not being willing to give alternative theories a fair shake because their careers depend on teaching evolution.

But then, I suppose you would agree that evolutionists are also engaged in a self-protective conspiracy, and that therefore their opinions about evolution are not to be trusted.

10:43 PM  
Blogger RoadsEnd said...

Well, now ...

One Anonymouse 8:02 squeaked...

Austria was threatened with severe sanctions by the EU for electing a partly neo nazi government (the leader of the Freedom party, Heider was forced to step down). Yet you can get 10 years in jail for questioning the number of jews killed in WWII.

That is monumental hypocrisy and a clear indication of something to hide. The reason they have arrested Zundel and Irvine is that they have nazi sympathies and it allows creepy characters like Jeff the unco-ordinated blogger to scatter gun accusations of nazi and fascist.


Gee, why do anonymouses try and sell their "arguments" with such obvious specious logic and deductive fallacies, and then of course the seemingly obligatory derisive comments. Pray tell me, is it a personal problem or can just not think of anything else to say?


Peace,
Kris Millegan

11:55 PM  
Blogger RoadsEnd said...

Why do they do it?

Anonymouse 10:38 leaves a "present" to stink up the place

Although we have been told Zyklon B was used to gas millions of Jews to death, Lindsey shows that the compound was used as an insecticide and disinfectant to delouse not only the Auschwitz inmates but also SS members running the camp and to fumigate their clothes, bunkhouses etc. Zyklon B, in short, was used to maintain and sustain human life-not to end it. Lindsey's essay examines the fraudulent evidence and testimony in the Tesch trial and eviscerates another critical element of not only the Auschwitz legend, but of the Holocaust story as a whole.

* Inside the Auschwitz "Gas Chambers" is by Fred A. Leuchter, a spunky American engineer once known as perhaps the foremost U.S. authority on the mechanics of judicial execution. Leuchter describes how he conducted scientific experiments on the structures at Auschwitz that court historians say were used to exterminate vast numbers of people-the infamous gas chambers. Leuchter concluded no such gassings could have ever taken place as the official story describes. For daring to present his findings-the only known such study carried out at the gas chambers-Leuchter was relentlessly harassed. But his point was made. His findings cut right to the core of the matter of Auschwitz.


They can't/won't read, it's disinfo/stinkinfo

from over a dozen years ago:

A UseNet Response from Dr. Danny Keren
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1993 15:56:58 GMT

This stuff has been posted here months ago, and refuted. There is a long file which addresses it more carefuly, but here are some major points:

1) Leuchter, who claims to be an "engineer", was exposed as a liar and a fraud. His only education consists of a BA in history, 1964. He admits to have no formal training in toxicology, biology, chemistry etc.

2) During his testimony at the Zundle trial in Canada, Leuchter not only lied about his professional past, he also ridiculed himself by proving not to have even a vague idea of what he is talking about. For instance, one of the claims Holocaust deniers make again and again is that there are less traces of cyanide compounds in the remains of the gas chambers in Auschwitz than in the "delousing chambers" in which clothes were deloused (using the same gas, hydrogen cyanide). As anyone with some training in toxicology knows, it takes a much higher concentration of the gas to kill lice, bugs etc than to kill humans and other warm blooded creatures (the concentration has to be up to 16,000 Parts Per Million; humans die when exposed to 300 PPM). Furthermore, to kill lice etc an exposure time of many hours is needed, while people die in minutes (like in the execution gas chambers in the US, which use exactly the same gas). Hence, it is obvious that there would be more cyanide traces in the delousing rooms.

When this fact was pointed out to Leuchter during his cross-examination by Mr. Pearson, he made the following pathetic reply:

"I've never killed beetles. I, you know, I don't know. I haven't made computations for killing beetles" [verbatim quote from the trial's transcript].

Furthermore, he claims that it would be dangerous to house the furnaces for cremating the victims in the same building in which the gas chambers were located, because the "gas might explode". Of course, he didn't even bother to check before exposing himself as a complete ignorant; the gas explodes at a minimal concentration of 56,000 PPM - about 200 times more than the lethal concentration (check, for instance, "The Merck Index" or any other text on flammability and toxicity).

Even more amazing is to read what he answered with regard to the current situation of the gas chambers in Auschwitz (demolished by the fleeing SS in an attempt to hide criminal traces):

Q. Crematoria III has been demolished.

A. Um, there are still parts of Crematoruim III there, but for the most part, the roof of the alleged gas chamber has crumbled and is all lying in bits and pieces in the basement of what would have been the alleged gas chamber.

Q. So, it's no longer subterranean?

A. That's correct. There's a hole in the ground.

Q. With respect to the gas chambers at Crematorium IV and V, those are totally demolished.

A. With the exception of the foundation, yes.

Q. So, all that was there for you to examine was the foundation of the building. Is that right?

A. That is correct.

Even more incredible is to see what Leuchter writes in his report:

"Evidence as to Krema function is non-existent since Krema's I oven has been completely rebuilt, Kremas II and III are partially destroyed with components missing, and Kremas IV and V are gone".

"Are gone"! Yet, he can still conjecture about how they functioned before being destroyed...


Now please dispute it factually.

Not just calling me and my friends "bad" names.

Peace,
Kris Millegan

12:25 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Kris/roadsend-

Are you the Kris Millegan quoted in the Wikipedia S&B article above?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skull_and_Bones

Also, could you go into the Phi Beta Kappa discrepancies in that article that you mentioned?

-thx

john doe

12:50 AM  
Anonymous Positronix said...

I agreee that discussions of the Holocaust are distracting and counterproductive.

Instead of worrying about what happened during WWII, we should be focusing on what is happening right now. Let's take a look at the American government, instead.

AIPAC, a foreign (Israeli) spy agency, has effective control of US Middle East Policy. See: Larry Franklin, Steve Rosen, Keith Weissman.
http://www.antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=6890

The Jewish Neoconservatives operate at every level of the Bush regime. Feith, Wolfowitz, Perle, Zakheim, Fleischer, etc, etc.
http://www.vdare.com/misc/macdonald_neoconservatism.htm

9/11 has Israeli/Jewish fingerprints all over it. Odigo, Zim Shipping, Dominic Suter, Larry Silverstein, the "Dancing Israelis", et al.
http://www.americanfreepress.net/Mideast/Israelis_Arrested_and_Detained/israelis_arrested_and_detained.html

12:52 AM  
Anonymous Michael said...

If you murder one or 6 million, what is the difference in the eyes of God?

12:58 AM  
Anonymous Alice said...

Michael: excellent point.

Sleazegrinder: your utter ignorance of the Middle East makes me doubt that you've even been here, let alone are the expert you imply you are. Being "part Lebanese" doesn't count: it's not a blood thing (thus subconscious racism reveals itself).

The "documentary series" "based" on the Protocols was nothing of the kind. In fact, it was a dramatic fictional series, that was shown after midnight and seen by very few people. The American and Israeli ambassadors gave it international notoriety and used it to further demonize the helpless victims of American and Zionist racism and oppression.

I tried to watch a few episodes (I only heard about it after it became a cause celebre), but it was too, too boring and poorly made.

It's the story of a man whose life spans the history of the British occupation of Egypt, then the creation of Israel, the expulsion and massacres of Palestians, the atrocities against and the enslavement of Arab people by foreign powers.

He struggles to understand how after so many sacrifices made by so many Arabs to achieve freedom in their own lands from foreign overlords, they remain slaves, living and dying at the whim of some foreigners greedy for their lands, greedy for their natural resources.

After a lifetime of futile struggle, after generations of Arabs have been abused, villified, after uncountable massacres and war crimes with the criminals not only unpunished, but fawningly referred to as democratic, freedom-loving and 'civilised'; after decades of watching the Israeli government demanding and receiving billions of dollars in compensation and reparations for the Holocaust while committing war crimes and crimes against humanity DAILY with no outcry, no sanctions, no accountability; the protagonist comes across a copy of the Protocols and reads it, comparing the reality which he has lived, with the aims outlined in the Protocols.

Kindly note that whereas the Protocols is a racist book, it is stupid to act as though the reading or even selling of a racist book is a greater crime than the daily murders of men, women and children; than the indiscriminate kidnapping, incarceration and torture of civilians; than the demolition of people's homes and the deliberate starvation of helpless civilians, JUST BECAUSE A SUPERIOR NATION WANTS THEIR LAND, OR THEIR OIL.

Zionists are fundamentally Jewish supremacists (however they define Judaism); Islamofascists are fundamentally Muslim supremacists (however they define Islam); Nazis are White supremacists (however they define White). They are mirror-images of each other; they feed each other.

Their enemy is not each other; their enemy is international law, Geneva Conventions, blind justice, and real democracy, supported by its four pillars: an independent judiciary; an independent, free press; free and fair elections; and a constitution that guarantees human rights and dignity.

By the way, since we're comparing genealogies and bloodlines, I am a Copt, a woman, who has chosen to live and raise my family in Egypt, a country I love dearly. My Muslim friends and neighbours in some cases are closer to me than my blood relatives. We celebrate each other's feasts and holidays with joy, we are there for each other in times of sorrow. The few times I have encountered individuals whom I would characterize as Islamofascists, I have confronted them and we have talked, until fear and ignorance were replaced with respect and a friendship that transcends religious or political differences.

"The region is steeped in anti-Semitism. The distinction between Jew and Zionist has been eviscerated."

I would like to point out that it was not Arabs, but Zionists who have and are constantly "eviscerating" the distinction between Jews and Zionists, just as Western propaganda over the past several decades has "eviscerated" the distinction between Islamofascists and Muslims (and Arabs), with predictably depressing results.

The opposite of racism is justice and the belief that every human life is sacred and precious. The opposite of hatred is love, and the opposite of ignorance is knowledge.

4:47 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Milligan

I happen to know for a fact you are a simpleton and once again you are trying to protect your own financial interest by defending the idiotic (Mr Wells) who you seem to be about to publish. It's interesting that his stablemate Dan Hopsicker is stupid too.

The logic is simple. A country with a partly neo nazi government would not risk international contempt and humiliation by having anti-holocaust laws unless there was a damned good reason.

If Austrians can get into government by being neo nazis, de-nazification is somewhat redundant, is it not ? Of course, they were liberated by the biggest thugs in the history of the galaxy, the Americans.

This guy is smarter than Wells and Hopsicker combined. He can think and draw diverse material together into a COHESIVE structure which Jeff Wells doesn't (or can't).

http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_stephen__060315_the_us_gulag_p
rison_.htm

5:51 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

My attitude to the ridiculously obvious holocaust hoax is to stay away from those who make a career out of it.Thy will have general anti-Jewish sentiments and may well be anti-semitic. All you have to do is read an account of the Irvine trial and see the paper thin nonsense they put up to defend the official story. It's like 9/11, there are far too many twisted little excuses and explanations.

For me, this isn't primarily a Jewish issue. Both the Americans and Russians were convinced they would get a foothold in the middle east by controlling Israel and were happy to invent gas chambers to facilitate that(get the Jews to move and convince the UN to create the state in Palestine).

The Americans were caught and had to admit they were lying (they have a free press) - there were no gas chambers in Germany, the Russians continue the myth to this day. Although, the total for Auschwitz is now one million, not four, tha was too obvious an invention.

6:44 AM  
Anonymous harry said...

Jeff Said...
"As I posted yesterday on the RI discussion board, holocaust denial is not a neutral topic of historical inquiry, it's a lure cast by Nazi apologists for vulnerably open minds, which exploits their fresh sense of distrust of history by suggesting that this, too, must be a lie."

The words that struck me here are, "...their fresh sense of distrust of history"

To me this is the key to understanding the recent surge of suspicions surrounding the historical accuracy of the holocaust.

Five years ago I was completely asleep. I trusted our government, I only read the mainstream newspapers and I thought the TV news presented 'the truth'.

The emergence of George Bush changed all that.

He was such an obvious front man, a puppet, who was totally unconvincing as a leader. The smirking arrogance was like they were taking the piss, like they could not even be bothered to try that hard anymore.

The way the US election was stolen then added to my "growing sense of unreality".

And then came 9/11 which set all the really serious alarm bells ringing. How convenient 9/11 was for the US neocons and Israel.

My worst fears were then quickly confirmed when I saw the way 9/11 was being exploited by the US neocons to wage the Iraq war.

That was the clincher.

At this point I was forced to discard all that I thought I knew about the history of the world and start again.

The level of the neocon lies, the enormity of the lies and the brazen way they were used to con people into accepting our terrible crimes made me realise that I could not trust a word that our governments say and never could.

From there I started to read alternative news and follow dissident web sites.

And that was the moment the can of worms was irretrievably opened for me.

I am now of the opinion that the JFK assassination coup was not an aberration. It was simply a rare moment of visibility, much like 911 and the Iraq war, where we can see that the reality of the world is far from what it is being presented to us.

And so you begin to work back, you start to ask yourself what can I really trust in "history".

And the simple answer is ‘nothing’.

From 9/11 to the moon landings to the holocaust I simply had to admit that I could not be sure.

Also I think I can identify other factors that contribute to growing suspicions over the history of the holocaust? I think it might have something to do with the following…

The US administration appears to completely infiltrated by Israel.

The neocons called for a new pearl harbour and shortly afterwards they got one.

The neocons are mostly jewish and they seem to have loyalty to the interests of Israel and not the US.

The Iraq war was sold to us on a pack of lies created by the neocons.

The only plausible reason for that war that is now 'left standing' is Israel.

Any critical discussion of Israel is crushed by accusations of anti semitism.

Even if you are a jew, if you criticise Israel you are labeled a self hating jew.

No discussion of the holocaust is allowed at all. Saying ‘you cannot think that’ is guaranteed to make people think it. The holocaust evidence is overwhelming so why not just overwhelm the deniers?

The way the holocaust is being exploited also makes it suspicious. If it is such a sacred event that no discussion is allowed why is it being used in such a sordid way.

Anyway to finish I am not denying the holocaust, I simply saying my trust of ‘history’ has been shattered. There is a massive difference

8:22 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

6:44am again

It wouldn't have surprised me in the least if the Nazis had tried to gas the Jews, but the facts seem to be that they didn't.

8:32 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Original anon poster here-

First, I'd like to say that I'm amazed by both the volume and intensity of the response to my questioning Jeff about his views on the Holocaust. It is exciting to me that such a hot topic can find at least a tolerant forum for debate. Some folks have gone over-the-top, but most have simply stated his/her case. Awesome.

My intention in asking the question was to both to discover why this topic was so often mentioned but never discussed by Wells, and to gauge the reality of the open-mindedness of those who read this blog. I also like to read people's reactions, both negative and positive.

The topic of the Holocaust has become a Scared Cow to some, being irrational defended by emotional hatred and angst. Those who defend the mainstream story are very quick to attack, while most of us who simply doubt the *official* story(but not the event itself) are more objective and approach it from a perspective of natural academic curiousity.

Why is this natural tendency to question things wrong when applied to this topic? What are the reasons for such harsh reaction to any doubt of the official story?

In my mind, there is something askew about the fact that one group of red-bleeding humans finds their story more important, more unquestionable than the history of genocide of any other culture. That's why the "Holocaust" causes so much consternation, IMHO. Those who profit from it demand it's blind acceptence, and are in positions to enforce their wishes. Period.

This is why I believe the MODERN CONTROVERSEY SURROUNDING THE HOLOCAUST is so very relavent to RI's topics of parapolitics. That one ethnic group can decide the reality of history and push it on the rest of the world, all the while perpettrating it's own Holocaust (of Palestinians) is absurd to my logical mind.

It isn't a matter of racial hatred; I'm married to a practicing Orthodox Jew who accepts my skepticism in accepting ANY official story, even THAT one.

Why can't everyone be so willing to accept/admit that some very real atrocities in WWII Europe occured, but that the scale and impact of such are totally impossible to accurately figure given an absence of an all-encompassing European census taken before hostilites. As far as I can find in history books there were never 6 million Jews in Europe to be exterminated. Most estimates are around 3.

That said: I don't know what happened, nor DO I PRETEND TO KNOW. Second-hand knowledge is tainted by the opinion of the conveyor of such knowledge. Only seeing things first-hand does one gain "fact". All else is, and should be, dubious.

Sure, my grandparents saw the war. My grandad also liberated concentration camps. He saw horror. He saw death. He saw 2 million unarmed, helpless German soldiers die of disease and starvation on Eisenhower's orders.

Why don't we hear about that? Or the Boyar Massacres and famines of 1930's Russia/Soviet Union? Is it OK to kill everybody but Jews?

To me, the only real reason to question the Holocaust is one of justice: is it just to allow one group of victims to monopolize all sympathy? No, of course not.

I don't, and can't, know the facts. All I know is that a subject like this becomes a marker for one's political (or parapolitical) perspective: if one is unable/willing to analyze such an enormous and complicated issue as this, can he be trusted to be objective on everything else?

I am NOT attacking Jeff. I do not pretend to know him, his experiences or alliegances. Everyone is born with a right to his opinion.I'm only saying that the exercise of truly "rigorous" intuition would not allow such a sharp, analytical mind to bypass the glaring incopnsistencies in the story around this issue.

Bottom line: WWII was a "war". Millions died, most horribly. The pain of that should remind us all of the horror of war. When one group demnds more recognition than any other, especially this kind of "recognition", I get suspicious. The only reason for cultivating a victim's mentality is negative.

Until we, the thinkers and debaters of the ether, can learn to realistically interface and exchange ideas our history, our COLLECTIVE history, will remain muddled. And those who do not understand history ARE doomed to repeat it.

Say hello, Isreal.

9:48 AM  
Anonymous starroute said...

If you want to talk about the manipulation of history, try this:

When I was a kid in the 50's, there was no "holocaust" an an iconic event -- but there were a lot of concentration camp survivors in New York City. My best friend's father had been in Auschwitz and had survived only because he was an artist and they had use of his skills to paint signs around the camp.

I knew this from the time I was about 5, but I didn't know what it really *meant* until I was perhaps 10 or 12 -- and when I found out, I was depressed and horrified for days.

My parents had another friend who was part of a group that had been let out of one of the camps at the end of the war as the American army approached. She'd lost a leg when a German soldier decided it would be fun to run over all of them as they slept one night in a field.

When I was 14, I knew someone else whose father had been in Auschwitz. He'd had a wife and children before the war, but his entire family had died there except for him. He remarried after the came to the U.S. and had one daughter.

These were all individual stories, things that had happened to particular people we knew and associated with every day. They weren't part of a big, indistinguishable black hole called "the holocaust." And they were certainly never felt to have anything to do with Israel.

It wasn't until the late 60's that things started to change -- after the 6 Day War, after Israel got nuclear weapons. Before that point, most American Jews felt that the U.S. was a far more secure place for them than Israel. Israel was the poor cousins you might help out with donations but certainly wouldn't count on for protection.

Someonw, in the course of the 70's, Israel got turned from the poor relation into the all-powerful big brother. But for Israel to be the answer, there needed to be a well-defined problem -- a problem of a kind you could handle with nukes and armies. Run-of-the-mill anti-semitism isn't addressable with nukes -- it had to be something both bigger and more localized. And so the cult of the holocaust and of "never again" was invented.

Now, as I said in an earlier post, the people known today as "holocaust deniers" were already getting into high gear by the early 60's -- before these other changes. Their target wasn't the supercharged Israel we know today. Their assumed motivation for the invention of non-existent death camps was some combination of stereotypical Jewish greed and a desire by lefties and New Dealers to badmouth the Germans.

If it weren't for super-Israel, holocaust denial would have gone nowhere. It would have been a conspiracy theory without a constituency. But just as the "holocaust" as a cultural icon was invented to justify Israeli aggressiveness, so Israeli aggressiveness becomes the after-the-fact justification for holocaust denial. The two things feed off one another.

If I may, I'd like to get really lame at this point and suggest that ultimately there are no "holocausts" anywhere -- no uber-mythic defining events -- no 9/11's or Pearl Harbors. All there are is people, and people have the choice of being either decent to one another or really shitty. It's a moral decision each of us makes at every moment, and it has nothing to to with real or imagined past injuries. It only has to do with where we go from here.

And, come to think of it, a general upgrade in human morality is probably a far better answer to Jewish insecurity than any number of nukes.

10:14 AM  
Blogger RoadsEnd said...

Howdy cowardly Anonymouses,

Well if you notice again. No factual refutation of anything just continued attacks and loaded harangues. And again the personal attacks.

Anonymouse snaps:
Milligan

I happen to know for a fact you are a simpleton


Hmm … And your facts are?

Anonymouse continues:
once again you are trying to protect your own financial interest by defending the idiotic (Mr Wells)

An old tired attack. I an accused of being not being simcere becasue I attempt to bring ideas to a wider audience through business. Gosh, yes, I do eat, try and keep warm and interact with my fellow humans. I have to earn a living. Do you work Mr. Anonymouse? What do you do? I am not here defending Mr. Wells, he is quite able to do that himself. I am here to defend history and engage in lively conversation. Now if you cannot supply anything factual, I can understand, why all you do is call names, lie and cast false aspersions.

So again, please supply facts instead of spittle laced screeds. If you can …

Peace,
Kris Millegan

10:57 AM  
Blogger RoadsEnd said...

Anonymous said...

Kris/roadsend-

Are you the Kris Millegan quoted in the Wikipedia S&B article above?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skull_and_Bones

Also, could you go into the Phi Beta Kappa discrepancies in that article that you mentioned?

-thx

john doe


Yes, and howdy,

Basically Russell, Taft and several other of the first class of Bonesmen were members of PBK. The article had stated "two students who were not admitted into Phi Beta Kappa," which is not historically correct. I have the membership rolls of PBK and they and three other Bonesman from the first group were members.
By casting the situation that way, the issue of secrecy, which was the real reason for Bones beginning, is downplayed. Because a fundamental fact is that the secrecy of this group is detrimental to our republic and injurious to our children's futures.

Peace,
Kris Millegan

11:08 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Milligan

The Austrian facts are common knowledge to anyone who can use google and understand the NYT and BBC websites.

"I happen to know for a fact you are a simpleton

Hmm … And your facts are?"


Tell me you aren't a simpleton for posting the material below with a recommendation.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cia-drugs/message/18736

Remember during the 'Shock and Awe' bombings?
I found this: ( it's a bit long, but ties a few things together)
- I don't know who wrote it....
```````````````
SHEKINA
The Cult of the Moon Goddess:

The High Arts of Sorcery in the United States & British War on Terrorism

Introduction

Many people are wondering why the United States & Great Britain has rushed to a war in Iraq now. "Why Now?" has been heard through the halls of the United Nations and around the world.

As many military and political leaders have said over the millennia, "Timing is everything."

The purpose of this research is to give possible explanations for the seemingly irrational and eager desire of the United States and Great Britain to engage in a war against Iraq and other countries of Islam despite the protests of the majority of humanity. If not, then it is a tale of coincidence, synchronicity and irony that staggers the mind when the full scope of its meaning becomes understood.

The reasons given will likely not be accepted by a religious or secular society who live in ignorance of the meanings hidden and twisted in historical, religious and mythological information. Unless one can for but a moment clear the minds of all outside prejudice from nationalistic pride, religious belief, racial ties and financial status, it will seem like pure insanity, blasphemy or treason.

11:22 AM  
Blogger RoadsEnd said...

Anonymouse

Again your point ... I read articles about many subjects. I run several email lists that have many differring post on them. Again your point is what? That I have read and forwarded to other people an article? Do want to burn books, also?

Please explain to me my sin and how this makes me a simpleton?

To me what this episode shows, again, is your reading and research skills are shoddy.

Anonymouse squeals:

Tell me you aren't a simpleton for posting the material below with a recommendation.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cia-drugs/message/18736


Hmm … Gee, Mr. Anonymouse if you go to the link, you will see that I forwarded the message without any comment at all, let alone a recommendation.

So, why do you call me names with lies? I mean you are a cowardly anonymouse so I guess you have no integrity or concern about actually presenting facts.

Have a nice day.

Peace,
Kris Milleagn

12:01 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"That I have read and forwarded to other people an article?"

Yes, one of deep and profound moronic stupidity beyond belief involving very simple minded thinking.


You are a simpleton.

I am anonymous because I don't have an account and don't want one.

12:30 PM  
Blogger RoadsEnd said...

Mr. Anonymouse,

So, now I am a simpleton because I read. Interesting concept.

Gee; before I was a simpleton "for posting the material below with a recommendation."

Kind of lowering your standards aren't you?

So I guess, what we have here is a liar calling me a simpleton because I read. I can live with that.

How 'bout you?

Again, have a nice day! :-)

Peace,
K

12:45 PM  
Blogger sfmike said...

Wow, nothing to add to this amazing spectrum of wisdom and idiocy except to say, starroute and alice, you are both writing goddesses. Thanks.

1:33 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Kris-
Interesting about the Wikipedia article's lead-off paragraph being not entirely accurate compared to your research, which is then quoted... I appreciate the integrity (and necessity) of pointing that out.

I have noticed that Wikipedia sometimes puts up 'Warning' notices about content it is reviewing, but saw no such notice on that page.

anyway- I've bookmarked your 'Boodle Boys' site- good, interesting work, IMO.(-and hey, anyone who gets an S & B article into High Times is ok in my book.)

-john doe

4:17 PM  
Anonymous starroute said...

sfmike -

What can I say except that you make me blush.

That, plus it occurred to me to google on the name of that childhood friend's father, which was Francis Reisz, and I found a drawing by him of Auschwitz dated 1945 and captioned "The pretences for selections were numerous. Often, SS-guards satisfied their perversion by selecting naked women who had to pass by them." Link

11:24 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

QUESTION: WHAT DIMENSION DOES THE HOLOCAUST PLAY IN THIS EQUATION? IS IT MANIPULATED BY THE ISRAELI STATE TO PROMOTE ITS OWN INTERESTS?

CHOMSKY: IT'S VERY CONSCIOUSLY MANIPULATED. I MEAN, IT'S QUITE CERTAINLY REAL, THERE'S NO QUESTION ABOUT THAT, BUT IT IS ALSO UNDOUBTED THAT THEY MANIPULATE IT. IN FACT, THEY SAY SO. FOR EXAMPLE, IN THE JERUSALEM POST, IN ENGLISH SO YOU CAN READ IT, THEIR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT WOLF BLITZER, I DON'T RECALL THE EXACT DATE, BUT AFTER ONE OF THE BIG HOLOCAUST MEMORIAL MEETINGS IN WASHINGTON HE WROTE AN ARTICLE IN THE JERUSALEM POST IN WHICH HE SAID IT WAS A GREAT SUCCESS. HE SAID, "NOBODY MENTIONED ARMS SALES TO THE ARABS BUT ALL THE CONGRESSMEN UNDERSTOOD THAT THAT WAS THE HIDDEN MESSAGE. SO WE GOT IT ACROSS." IN FACT, ONE VERY CONSERVATIVE AND VERY HONEST ZIONIST LEADER, NACHEM GOLDMAN, WHO WAS THE PRESIDENT OF THE WORLD ZIONIST ORGANIZATION AND WHO WAS DETESTED TOWARDS THE END BECAUSE HE WAS MUCH TOO HONEST -- THEY EVEN REFUSED TO SEND A DELEGATION TO HIS BURIAL, I BELIEVE, OR A MESSAGE. HE'S ONE OF THE FOUNDERS OF THE JEWISH STATE AND THE ZIONIST MOVEMENT AND ONE OF THE ELDER STATESMEN, A VERY HONEST MAN, HE -- JUST BEFORE HIS DEATH IN 1982 OR SO -- MADE A RATHER ELOQUENT AND UNUSUAL STATEMENT IN WHICH HE SAID THAT IT'S -- HE USED THE HEBREW WORD FOR "SACRILEGE" -- HE SAID IT'S SACRILEGE TO USE THE HOLOCAUST AS A JUSTIFICATION FOR OPPRESSING OTHERS. HE WAS REFERRING TO SOMETHING VERY REAL: EXPLOITATION OF PROBABLY THE WORLD'S MOST HORRIFYING ATROCITY IN ORDER TO JUSTIFY OPPRESSION OF OTHERS. THAT KIND OF MANIPULATION IS REALLY SICK.

QUESTION: THAT DISTURBS YOU AND...

CHOMSKY: REALLY SICK. MANY PEOPLE FIND IT DEEPLY IMMORAL BUT MOST PEOPLE ARE AFRAID TO SAY ANYTHING ABOUT IT. NACHEM GOLDMAN IS ONE OF THE FEW WHO WAS ABLE TO SAY ANYTHING ABOUT IT AND IT WAS ONE OF THE REASONS HE WAS HATED. ANYONE WHO TRIES TO SAY ANYTHING ABOUT IT IS GOING TO BE SUBJECTED TO A VERY EFFICIENT DEFAMATION CAMPAIGN OF THE SORT THAT WOULD HAVE MADE THE OLD COMMUNIST PARTY OPEN-MOUTHED IN AWE, PEOPLE DON'T TALK ABOUT IT.

http://www.chomsky.info/books/
dissent01.htm

11:30 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

AP Erases Video of Israeli Soldier Shooting Palestinian Boy

"In the final analysis, therefore, it is up to us--members of the public--to step in. Everyone who believes that Americans have the right and the need to receive full, undistorted information on all issues, including Israel-Palestine, must take action. We must require our news media to fulfill their profoundly important obligation, and we must ourselves distribute the critical information our media are leaving out."

http://www.counterpunch.org/
weir03182006.html

12:19 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hmmm... the picture in the Tikrit family massacre story (http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L15272267.htm) links to this page:

US and Iraqi soldiers give goodies to villagers while on routine patrol at village in Hilla

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/pictures/BAG226D.htm

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