Friday, August 05, 2005

The hour when the ship comes in


Like the stillness in the wind
'Fore the hurricane begins
The hour when the ship comes in
- Bob Dylan


There's something about Hope, that for me, doesn't go down easily, and burns on the way back up.

It's the pasturized, hollowed-out passivity to it - or what passes for it - that makes me scrunch up my lips and shake my head Hell no. It's the same idle dream that tricksters and daemons, both human and other than human, have encouraged us to entertain for millenia. It's Maitreya; it's Hillary in '08; it's our benevolent Space Brothers; it's Disclosure; it's the lottery; it's the Rapture. It's the pie-in-the-sky-when-you-die, or when a Democrat is returned to the White House. It's even the fatalistic anticipation of Doom, and the Final Release.

However it's tarted up, the message is always the same: Just wait. Just a little bit longer.

Hope, remember, was Bill Clinton's hometown. And if that's hope, if all we have is Don't Stop Thinking About Tomorrow, then please God, give me naked, howling despair. Which, I must say, has its place. If we howled naked more often we might be ahead of the game by now, or at least know what game this is.

That's the emasculating Hope of the devils who honour the Dr King they killed by psychic-driving I had a dream to the vanishing point of I'd like to buy the world a Coke. The Dr King of "Beyond Vietnam" is not safe, cannot be contained by Happy Thoughts for the better tomorrow forever dangled in our faces, and will never have his portrait hung in the hall of his murderers. That's a Dr King who must be killed daily, because the next time he marches he's going to carry Hell behind him.

It's a Hope that tells us to empty our pockets of all valuables, and sit on our hands and wait. For what? For whatever you like. Just wait. Wait until your ship comes in. Then - ooh man! - it's gonna be sweet.

So it may seem peculiar that I find an example of authentic hope in a song titled When the Ship Comes In. In some measure we're only as strong as our metaphors, so do we really need to wait for another damn ship? But that's not this metaphor which we ought to celebrate:

A song will lift
As the mainsail shifts
And the boat drifts on to the shoreline.
And the sun will respect
Every face on the deck,
The hour that the ship comes in.


Do you see? We're not waiting on the shore, scanning the horizon for the ship and our salvation. We're on the ship. It's ours. The deck is overrun with whistleblowers, blowing whistles, and the communications room is tapping out messages to those still on land who don't know what all the hubbub's about.

Then the sands will roll
Out a carpet of gold
For your weary toes to be a-touchin'.
And the ship's wise men
Will remind you once again
That the whole wide world is watchin'.


Maybe this is just the vanity of cattle, to think we must be of exceeding importance to those who would slaughter us, but I don't think we know yet how much we must scare them. If we had no power, then history - and alright: parahistory - would not be the record of our being separated from it. All sinister forces share the trait of vampirism: they draw strength by consuming our blood, our fear, our minds, our awe. So perhaps, in some sense, it really is all about us.

In the early hours of August 8, 1993, several cars pulled to the side of a road between Belgrave and Fountain Gate near Melbourne, Australia. A massive, radiant object which should not have been there was sitting in the adjoining field. Kelly Cahill and her husband, and the rest who happened by randomly, exited their vehicles to better regard the weird sight. (Cahill's account is supported by the other witnesses.)

Kelly's description of the preliminary scene, which sets up a typical abduction account, from Hair of the Alien:

I'm standing there and we are looking at this thing. All of a sudden there is a black figure in the field. It's about seven feet tall... It started coming towards us, only slowly, and it had big red eyes. It sounds stupid, but it had great big round red eyes, like huge fly's eyes, and they were red like, not like a reflection of red, but like burning red, like....fluorescent stop lights....

All of a sudden I started screaming out.... Now this has really got me baffled because of the fact that a human being doesn't know this, so I don't even know how I came out with this, but I started saying, "They've got no souls." And then I started screaming: "THEY'VE GOT NO SOULS!"

And maybe that's our power: We do. Maybe that's what they've been coveting all this time, from the incubi and succubi to alien "genetic hybridization." Maybe that's what our more mundane demons mean to kill within us. Maybe that's really what we're talking about when we talk about mind control and ritual abuse.

Let's have no false hope about this. I won't say they can't kill us all, because they can. Perhaps they even mean to. And I can't promise that the ship will come in. The hour may never arrive, or we may not live to see it. But if we're ensouled and know it then we can make our enemies quail, because we're on a good ship with some wind at our backs. Even if it seems sometimes as though we're sailing in circles, that's far better than standing on the beach in wet shoes with our hands thrust purposefully in our pockets.

And we're not sunk yet.

Oh the foes will rise
With the sleep still in their eyes
And they'll jerk from their beds and think they're dreamin'.
But they'll pinch themselves and squeal
And know that it's for real,
The hour when the ship comes in.





By the way, Fintan Dunne has thoughtfully published a list of "CIA Internet Fakes." He writes, "We do not contend that everyone associated with these websites are knowing intelligence operatives. Some have been professionally manipulated, others merely misled. In any event these are promoting the psyop agendas and disinformation themes of the covert controllers. This is also not meant to be a fully comprehensive listing of all the fake websites."

It's really quite the list. And honestly, given some of the cans of worms lying open around here, I can see why he might include Rigorous Intuition, and think I'm at best misled. But Buzzflash? CooperativeResearch? Narconews? Riverbend? The only site I see missing is his own.

There are psyop agendas and disinformation themes. But someone who sees them everywhere can't help but make me wonder: What's his agenda?

1482 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

"The hour when the ship comes in"
Beautiful post

12:10 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

anona said:

"Beautiful post"

What?! I found it quite rambling and incoherent. Is there a point?

12:14 PM  
Anonymous jp said...

excellent post jeff, as always. brings to mind old uncle hesiod:

http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/OMACL/Hesiod/works.html

"Only Hope remained there in an unbreakable home within
under the rim of the great jar, and did not fly out at the door;
for ere that, the lid of the jar stopped her, by the will of
Aegis-holding Zeus who gathers the clouds. But the rest,
countless plagues, wander amongst men; for earth is full of evils
and the sea is full."

12:15 PM  
Anonymous jp said...

o and it also reminds me of jacques ellul, who said, in 'hope in a time of abandonment,' that true hope is only valid or even possible when there is absolutely no chance of success. "Hope comes alive only in the dreary silence of God, in our loneliness before a closed heaven, in our abandonment." it's a good book-- highly recommended.

12:27 PM  
Anonymous enkidu said...

In the 'Sixties I was a highschool hippie trippin' on acid in the basement of some friend's house--it was quite a party, lots of kids there, live music, and hallucinogenic drugs of every kind.
Suddenly some strange adult men came down the basement stairs, in plainclothes but flashing badges, as if they might be FBI or something (I doubt any of us actually got a good look at the badges). They lined us up against the wall and searched us. Again everyone there was flyin,' there were bags of LSD and mescaline and psilocybin and marijuana and hashish, but every time one of these "agents" stuck their hands in one of our pockets, their hands came out empty.
Once they had searched everyone, THEY LEFT. Stupid kids that we were, we assumed they somehow MISSED all the drugs, or maybe we had clouded THEIR minds so as not to see. But as time passed it occurred to me that they were MAKING SURE we were using drugs, that they WANTED us to use drugs, that it was all part of the PLAN to keep us student radicals distracted, disorganized, and complacent.
And it worked, unfortunately. But as you say, Jeff, among all the emotions I feel when I think about it is a weird sense of triumph, because maybe they actually took us seriously as a THREAT, seriously enough to try to stop us--

12:36 PM  
Blogger The Daily Heretic said...

Very nice, Jeff. That has always been one of my favorite Dylan songs.

12:51 PM  
Anonymous seventhson said...

Hi Jeff -

Congrats on the listing as a disinformationist. Bound to happen. Mass badjacketting. It is a badge of honor.

Thanks for your bit on HOPE.

I think it is William Burroughs who expressed his fear that with the atomic bomb they might actually be able to annihilate our souls, Scary thought. but no matter what i tend to believe we go back to the eternal bosom of the mother-father Creator. Oh well.

I posted this on the board with little response but it gave ME some hope, hit the nail on the head regardiung brute lust of the power hungry, and the philosophy I hold to that we all emanated from the Divine and if we only seek that we will be drawn back into that consciousness.

I think this piece is relevent here, though, so I post it again in response to your thoughts on hope. I share your concerns, but Baba also said that we must do our work (not sit on our hands). But the work must be borne of love for humanity. Anyway:

Have Hope (Meher Baba)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Events in my own life and Cortez's thread on "The Way in is the Way Out" (and the discussion about Steiner's philosophies) got me to thinking and contemplating and reading.

I found this and wanted to share it because it is so beautiful.

It also sums up our predicament pretty well and provides a ray of Hope, despite the brutal selfishness and lust for power of our current President and his fiendish collaborators.

HAVE HOPE

The modern era is steeped in restlessness as man is tossed between conflicting ideals. Like mounds in a sandy desert, intellectual knowedge is mounting up without provision for the expression of the heart, which is so totally necessary to quench the need of the spirit. It is lack of this that has checkmated man's achievements, in spite of himself and his enormous advancements in the fields of science. Unhappiness and insecurity, emotional or otherwise, are the dominant notes of the age, and mankind is engulfed in the darkness of wars, hate and fear.

Yet I say, "Have Hope."

Selfishness and lust for power tend to drag man towards brutality, which he has inherited from his evolutionary ancestry or acquired during erroneous searching through his incarnations. But there is within man the inextinguishable light of the Truth, because he is essentially divine in origin and being.

Those who cleanse their hearts of the embittering poison of selfishness, hate and greed shall find God as their own true Self. When you find and realize God, the problem of selfishness and its numerous expressions melts away like mist before the sun. In God and as God, all life reveals itself as being really one and indivisible, and all seperateness created by the identification with human or sub-human forms is seen to be illusory.

The Truth of divine life is not hope but a reality. It is the only reality, and all else is illusion. Have faith and you will be redeemed. Have love and you will conquer the lower and limited self of cravings that veil your own true being as God. Not through desperate self-seeking, but through constant self-giving is it possible to find the Self of all selves.

Meher Baba (From "Life at Its Best" Introduction by W.Y. Evans-Wentz)

http://p097.ezboard.com/frigorousintuitionfrm10.showMessage?topicID=214.topic

12:58 PM  
Anonymous thrulookingglass said...

That harvester of souls concept really struck a chord with me. The same with many abductees looking into "alien" eyes and feeling they were "soulless". It may have been Strieber or John Mack, but I believe one of them made a references to humans being regarded as not much more than "containers for souls". I believe other abductee accounts said that the "aliens" knew how to seperate the soul from the body. Perhaps this is why so many of us are left to toil under tyrannical enslavement. "Let the poor wallow in the mire, souls for the harvestors". Though, I have a problem with why they return abductees in good health and, for the most part, unharmed. Perhaps they are looking for a way to "create" a soul without having to create a whole human. On another subject, does anyone know more about the supposed Dr. Dan Burisch/alien incident? How 'bout a BS check on that one? -
"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." -- Martin Luther King, Jr.

1:13 PM  
Anonymous Raul said...

The only site I didn't see was GNN.

1:16 PM  
Anonymous Ellie said...

Oh jeez guess what, the world is full of shit? You don't say son, so what's new?

Jeff, I'm sixty years old. I've seen stuff you wouldn't want to know about. I lost a daughter when I was twenty-one. I've seen kids in diapers blown apart in the Lebanon in 1982. I've seen people with nothing struggling to get by and put food on the table for their kids. I've seen mothers dying of treatable diseases. I was in Bhopal a year after the accident while Union Carbide was trying to fix it so they'd never have to pay a penny in compensation to the people they'd maimed.

But none of those people - not the parents of the dead kids nor the people with nothing and going nowhere, nor the ones struggling with with the outrageous injustices inflicted on them - gave up the way you do. Really, forgive me for saying it, but you should be ashamed.

The easy part is despairing. The difficult part is to deal with it, to get beyond it and still find something valuable and good and beautiful.

Demons can kill us? Oh Jeff, sure they can, and they can take you down into the darkness - if that is what you choose to believe they can do. Man we all create our own reality don't you see? And if you are determined to fill yours with demons and despair then that is all you will find. But don't have the arrogance to make it a universal truth!

You know there's a reason that nihilism appeals to adolescents. It's easy, it takes no effort. They are young enough to be able to enjoy their imagined despair.

I'm afraid your posts can read slightly like that sometimes. Get a grip. Dare to hope. Get out more. Maybe even grow up a little?

Ellie

2:08 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

As juvenile as this may sound, it is true: Fintan Dunne is an idiot.

--Spooked

2:21 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The Buddha teaches that we don't have souls. There might be something to that. Check it out. Pick up a book on Vipassana meditation, or visit this website: http://www.dhamma.org/

2:25 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I notice my site (Humint Events Online) isn't there-- either he doesn't know of it, or he thinks I am legit?

But looking at his list, I think he'd be better off saying which sites AREN'T CIA fakes, because he has every major conspiracy site there. It is totally idiotic, particularly given his "criteria".

--spooked

2:27 PM  
Blogger Jeff said...

Ellie, I should get out more, and I'm just about to. But I'm not a nihilist. The post was about authentic hope, not inauthentic despair. If my hope looks like your despair, then I suppose I envy you. But I'm not you.

2:27 PM  
Anonymous Cloudless said...

I think you're hitting on something important there, Jeff. If one examines the various avenues of information that can be "alternative" or "fringe," one finds that the vast majority of them carry a promise of radical change for the near future. There's peak oil, there's the Rapture, there's 2012, there's nuclear war--all of it possibly existing to serve a purpose you have eluded to: creating "pasturized, hollowed-out passivity."

It is possibly a control system set up for the inevitable minority who will look at the world and assume that the full story is not being told. After all, why spend your time digging deeper, why spend your time trying to change things, when change has already been promised? If Peak Oil is going to be the end of industrial civilization, why fight?

3:34 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Truth will stand on its own merit over time.

EVERY board is infiltrated (along with every service organization, every political organization - left-hand-path, top-down control).

Those with discernment can easily see and smell the trolls.

Divide and conquer is the game.

"it occurred to me that they were MAKING SURE we were using drugs, that they WANTED us to use drugs, that it was all part of the PLAN to keep us student radicals distracted, disorganized, and complacent."

Yes, keeping those on the scent diverted, with limited hangouts, bullying, windowpane, whatever it takes, to keep them from figuring out the real program. And who is driving it.

Real, actual people are driving it. Waging a real, actual war, They placed REAL put options on 9/11. The mission is to find and try and convict and ride out of town on a rail those very real people.

Then, shortly after, get to the people who worked to cover their evil tracks for a living.

I'll worry about the Dark Spirit Soul Stealer army later...after I deal with the actual physical Dark Army that places actual put options, kills thousands of actual innocent people.

Keep your eye on the ball, sleuths, don't let waving arms and legs, or magic passport holders, or red-eyed sould stealers, distract you from the put option-placing navel of your adversary.

3:57 PM  
Anonymous Ellie said...

Jeff - bless you love. I know you are trying to get it right like we all are and that makes it fine with me. I just worry you are looking to the dark too much to find your answers.

Maybe you aren't nihilistic but you certainly credit your demons with so much power. Just try giving them a little less and maybe they'll grow less dark.

I don't advocate mindless optimism. The world can be dark. We have to combat the wrongs and we can't wear blinders. But isn't there also a power of love? Doesn't anyone here ever feel connected to that love and that it's love, not darkness that is where the true heart of the universe lies? That the darkness is ourselves and if we look beyond ourselves to the eternal unknowable we also look beyond the dark?

Try turning away from all that black crap for a while. You know it always ends up taking you down if you don't keep your distance.

Try finding the good. Not because you are running away, but because you are looking out big and beyond.

Ellie

3:58 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The soul thing is interesting, speaking of which I'd like to hear more about the "St. Peter's net" idea that you've mentioned before.

Also, unrelated: I've never heard you mention shadow people, this is something I've personally experienced, wondering if you had a take on it.

5:24 PM  
Anonymous Ken Layne said...

Wow, a couple of people got angry about this one ...

Very nice stuff, Jeff. I thought it was about Real Hope as opposed to the False Hope of waiting around for your beautiful reward or believing politics offers some moral answer.

To quote another Dylan song:

I'm not sorry for nothin' I've done

I'm glad I fought - I only wish we'd won

5:35 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Thanks Jeff! Here's a bit from Ivan Illich on hope from Deschooling Society:Chapter VII Rebirth of the Epimethean Man

"Hopeful trust and classical irony (eironeia) must conspire to expose the Promethean fallacy.

Prometheus is usually thought to mean "foresight," or sometimes even "he who makes the North Star progress." He tricked the gods out of their monopoly of fire, taught men to use it in the forging of iron, became the god of technologists, and wound up in iron chains.

The Pythia of Delphi has now been replaced by a computer which hovers above panels and punch cards. The hexameters of the oracle have given way to sixteen-bit codes of instructions. Man the helmsman has turned the rudder over to the cybernetic machine. The ultimate machine emerges to direct our destinies. Children phantasize flying their spacecrafts away from a crepuscular earth.

From the perspectives of the Man on the Moon, Prometheus could recognize sparkling blue Gaia as the planet of Hope and as the Arc of Mankind. A new sense of the finiteness of the Earth and a new nostalgia now can open man's eyes to the choice of his brother Epimetheus to wed the Earth with Pandora.

At this point the Greek myth turns into hopeful prophecy because it tells us that the son of Prometheus was Deucalion, the Helmsman of the Ark who like Noah outrode the Flood to become the father of a new mankind which he made from the earth with Pyrrha, the daughter of Epimetheus and Pandora. We are gaining insight into the meaning of the Pythos which Pandora brought from the gods as being the inverse of the Box: our Vessel and Ark.

We now need a name for those who value hope above expectations. We need a name for those who love people more than products, those who believe that


No people are uninteresting.
Their fate is like the chronicle of planets.

Nothing in them is not particular,
and planet is dissimilar from planet.

We need a name for those who love the earth on which each can meet the other,


And if a man lived in obscurity
making his friends in that obscurity,
obscurity is not uninteresting.

We need a name for those who collaborate with their Promethean brother in the lighting of the fire and the shaping of iron, but who do so to enhance their ability to tend and care and wait upon the other, knowing that


to each his world is private,
and in that world one excellent minute.
And in that world one tragic minute.
These are private.*

I suggest that these hopeful brothers and sisters be called Epimethean men.

* The three quotations are from ""People"' from the book Selected Poems by Yevgeny Yevtushenko.

5:40 PM  
Anonymous Steven Lagavulin said...

There's an old saying that's fairly common to us, but which I've come to suspect might be a kind of "heirloom" from a very old teaching:

Hope for the Best,
Prepare for the Worst,
Accept what Comes.

For myself, I've come to recognize that the wisdom is in understanding the relationships between the three. If these relationships are respected, then the these otherwise "disjointed" attitudes can actually become a movement or a force within us.

So I agree with you Jeff, that Hope for Hope's sake alone has no purpose, it offers no direction to our lives. It can often be simply the Hope of a fool, and not the Hope of a wise person.

Just as Acceptance, in and of itself, brings us no benefit...gives none of the character and strength that it reveals in someone of more wisdom.

While to "Prepare for the Worst" is little more than fruitless worry (or just plain pathology) if one does not do so with an very real aim toward realizing something better (and a resolve for one's inability to "control" the outcome).

So perhaps it's the relationships that need to be respected....

(oh, and as always, I welcome our buggy-eyed overlords...)

6:15 PM  
Blogger Zero Haven said...

Hope? Isn't that just wishful thinking?
I don't understand it. Maybe I'm too young to understand it.
In my world there is past, there is now, and understanding the future consequences of now.
This post may appear dark to some because hope is the last resort when no other action can be taken. Hope is the belief that perhaps some latent psychic phenomenon will influence the world and turn our imagined reality into the real thing.
I hope I win the lottery.
The hope you describe as 'burning on the way back up' is the hope of the lazy; of those who want their imagined outcome without having contributed to it.

The hour the boat comes in I fully expect it to be drizzling cold snot and that carpet of gold sand will be hiding broken glass and infected syringes. But by golly, I'll be laughing under my umbrella in my reinforced boots at the fool who hoped it would be just like in that song. If it really is nice after all, my reward will be that much more joy for not having expected it.

6:49 PM  
Anonymous Lone Wolf said...

Another truly reflective post Jeff,
Hope is like a drug that deludes the user into separating themselves from reality. It's the fervent, delusional pseudo-prayer that the escape-artists from reality use to refrain from cognizant action. It's a plea for the powerless trapped in an increasingly incomprehensible world where their very survival dictates they do something. Organized religions supply this opiate in spades and work to the state's advantage by dosing the populace in the guise of false-faith. Keeping us subdued by focusing on only the tales that never challenge our oppression. Separating us from catalyst statements like "God helps those who help themselves" and " God hates a coward".

As to the 'bad-jacketeer' who seeks to undermine the truly progressive websites, he fails to realize that in PSYOPS the watchwords are manipulation, disinformation and obfuscation. The one thing they wouldn't do is establish sites that disseminate, corroborate, investigate and link evidence of crimes they are perpetuating. That would be catastrophically poisoning one's own well. Whether or not this fool is consciously or unconsciously, running a counter-propaganda mission as an asset of theirs, the result is still the same. Create the environment of confusion and distrust amongst the rank and file, with an added bonus of having the newly disillusioned chuck it all away. One thing that is evident, is the level of desperation these soulless vampires are reaching as they feel growing uneasiness and resentment towards their fascist enterprises. A fact strictly verboten to speak of, by the puppet-heads propagating their heavily censored, state-manufactured news. But incidents of seeming self-cannibalization amongst the ranks and not to mention outright sabotage, reveal the sorry state these crime cabals are in. The war they started against the masses is experiencing some blowback.The eyes on them and their synthetic terror operations are increasing as even more researchers, investigators and the newly angered join the fold. More than the masses with power, these parasites fear true democracy, accountability for their crimes and having to honestly work for a living. They're finding it harder and harder to wrap themselves in thickets of plausible denial and the more desperate they get, the sloppier and more overtly vicious they'll become. As their hopes for a Hell on Earth become openly challenged and eventually destroyed.

He who dares wins.

6:50 PM  
Anonymous rain said...

if I remember a-right, Kelly also said she heard one of them (military guy) say 'someone shut that woman up'.

6:54 PM  
Anonymous Voltaire99 said...

In re: "Hope," Ellie's comments, and the location of Counterpunch on a CIA dupe list

Nothing is quite so eager or earnest as the hope of those who want others to hope.

And if one is 60 and has seen the tragedies that Ellie describes, then hope is a construct, not a consequence, of experience.

Where the personal interesects with the political on this question, confusion (sometimes bitterly) results. Little in the American political system would give hope today to any but a Candide. Tell me where you would locate it, specifically. The despotic right wing? The malleable, cowardly center? The disenfranchised and dyspeptic left?

And yet, funny enough, having had all my dyspepsia shots, I read the work at Counterpunch and RI because the often sardonic insights into our sick age are themselves hopeful: light shed on darkness is uplifting, even if what the light reveals is merely the undercarriage of evil. At least you're seeing. At least you see.

Tell me what you see; I'll tell you if I can see hope in it.

But even the difficult art of seeing isn't enough for the remnants of American liberalism who take refuge in the sagging tent of the Democratic Party. You can find a believer in reform-from-within like Steve Gilliard, for example, grousing about how Counterpunch or Pacifica aren't doing anything positive, while clinging to an institutional hope long past its shelf date. No wonder. Hope can be self-delusion: sometimes a necessary narcotic in a world that hurts, but do ask your doctor about side effects.

Ellie, is it nihilism to recognize where your probing foot feels the empty air at the end of the plank on a ship called Hope? At 60, with the leering pirates of our culture at your back, and all those dead Bhopal babies crying below decks, well should you know what lies after the next step.

--Voltaire99

7:09 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"The one thing they wouldn't do is establish sites that disseminate, corroborate, investigate and link evidence of crimes they are perpetuating."

That is unless they did so in highly sophisticated, well-staffed, limited hangout ways. Leaving a crumb-trail of actual truths to draw attention AWAY from the bigger picture being concealed.

The serious investigator knows that the people we see, whom we know the NAMES of, are mere actors, playing roles. So, whom do they work FOR? Who pays them, whom do they FEAR, who controls THEM?

To ask such questions is the very definition of Rigorous, and the answers to them are not derived via Intuition. They are found through logic and the cold reasoning of 'who benefits?', and by following the money.

7:37 PM  
Anonymous starroute said...

Trying to name names is a chump's game.

Little kids are a great role model here. They've got fantastic bullshit detectors and no idea of who's supposted to be famous or important. All they know is how people treat them.

We can only hope to do as well.

If somebody is an obvious troublemaker, we should be able to spot them easily. If somebody clearly has an agenda, if they only pop up in certain places to push a limited line, that should be pretty obvious as well. If somebody keeps company with people we find dubious, we should be able to ask them in all innocence what they see in their associates -- and recognize whether we're getting a straight answer or not.

What are we all so afraid of? Are we worried that some infiltrator could say exactly the right things for long enough to suck us in -- and then betray us? Are we worried that somebody could put out info that's 95% straight but with the last 5% so snaky that it leads us off to Wonderland without us knowing it?

We have to trust ourselves better than that. Would you fall for the latest Nigerian scam letter that pops into your mailbox offering you a share of $20 million? Government-sponsored disinfo is no different. The only way you could fall for it is if you give in to fear or greed to the point where you turn off that bullshit detector you were born with and hear only what you want to hear.

Mystical traditions are full of instructions for how to get the crap out of your head, because it's essential if you want to play out on the fringes of reality. It isn't the easiest thing in the world to do, but it isn't exactly rocket science either -- and the guidelines have been freely available for thousands of years.

Here are a few that immediately come to mind:

If it looks to good to be true, it probably is.

Never play cards with a man named Doc, and never eat at a place called Mom's.

Don't follow leaders, watch the parking meters.

8:49 PM  
Anonymous Smile Smile Smile said...

Jeff:
It looks like Fintan Dunne may be the Robert Novak of the internets.
Hasn't he learned that its a crime to leak the identities of covert CIA operatives.

9:25 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Trying to name names is a chump's game."

A chump's game...you mean, names like those of the folks who engineered 9/11, or names of the individuals who engineered the shenanigans in London?

What game are the non-chumps playing?

9:26 PM  
Anonymous Kasha said...

Voltaire99, where I see Hope is in the street kids now hunkered down on the corners with their begging caps. Though it's hard enough for them to find a meal of any description, some are vegetarian because they don't want to hurt animals. Some are even concerned about how to help their counterparts in Africa. They're the brightest and best of today's youth, the ones who have had the smarts to identify a corrupt system, the integrity to refuse to participate in it, and the courage to live with the consequences of that decision. They will be the ones most receptive to a better way of organizing society, because they have nothing invested in the Establishment - not even a welfare check (for that, you need to be of age and have an address!).

But there's also a potent threat from the same source. The Nazis recruited heavily among the street people of Germany.

10:04 PM  
Blogger peacemom said...

Wow!
TvNewsLIES
made the list. what great company to be in....I'm thrilled. Just one small thing.

So there's a list. Let's hear it for the listmaker. Where is a single statement from ANY of the sites on the list to support the premise that disinformation is being spread. It's easy to accuse. It's much more difficult and credible to substantiate one's accusation.

Just a thought.... some of the sites, (including TvNewsLies.org) have challenged the official version of 9/11 that the meaningless Kean Commission would have us believe.

Is it less misleading to suggest that 19 amateurs with minimal piloting experience were able to hijack four airliners undetected? Is it less misleading to have us believe that they were able to put to shame the most sophisticated defense system in the world?

Every site on that list has far more credibility and presents far more real information, and raises questions based on reasonable suspicion than does the listmaker himself.

If I'm wrong... let's hear the misinformation, and the substantive evidence to show it is, indeed, misleading.

10:59 PM  
Anonymous Avalon said...

"Little kids are a great role model here. They've got fantastic bullshit detectors and no idea of who's supposted to be famous or important. All they know is how people treat them.

We can only hope to do as well."

Little kids can get sucked into every junky toy and sugar ad there is. They know what people are important to them, just not who might be important to grownups. They don't always have realistic assessments of how people treat them ("My parents are the meanest parents in the world because they won't let me go to the mall"), and they can be horribly cruel in their honesty.

Not all kids, all aspects, all times, of course. But neither are the idealized descriptions of them.

11:22 PM  
Anonymous starroute said...

To Anonymous 9:26 --

No, by naming names I mean trying to figure out who might be a disinformation agent.

I've kept lists from time to time of people at Democratic Underground whose good faith I had cause to wonder about. I've found that it's easy enough to identify the underminers, the apologists for the administration or the DLC, the people who whine, "We might as well give up, Karl Rove is too clever for us, it's all hopeless."

But with rare exceptions -- like a few of the newbies who showed up last November -- I've found it almost impossible to pinpoint deliberate infiltrators among the skeptics, the doubters of authority, and the conspiracy theorists. I did try for a while, but I finally gave it up as a waste of time.

Instead, I critically examine every post -- especially the most outrageous ones -- compare them against my own knowledge, run them through the bullshit detector, and in particularly crucial cases, do my best to cross-check the information or the poster online.

Even when a particular post fails those tests, I don't conclude that the poster is a deliberate disinfo agent. I'm far more likely to think that they've bought into some aspect of right-wing conspiracy theory (CFR/Bilderberg/NWO) or that they've got a bee in their bonnet about one particular topic.

Not only does this save a lot of wear and tear on the nervous system, but I believe it's more secure in the long run that trying to identify certain people as known baddies.

11:33 PM  
Anonymous Jim said...

What is hope? Hope is what you believe in against all the evidence and you can only really appreciate it when your back is truly to the wall. I am a survivor of ritual abuse. Ritual abuse is the total assault on every aspect of a human being. Amnesty International (I am led to believe) has described it as worst abuse of human rights there is. So when I refused to become what they wanted me to be, it was because I would NOT become what I knew was wrong. This must imply that I knew that there was a right way. I did not know what it was but I had HOPE. I am not saying there are no consequences. There are.
Despair sets in when you accept you have no choice in how you view yourself; when you accept you have no choice. But you always have choice whether you realise it or not. The perps' main object is to take that perception away from you.
After that, they control you (or so it appears). Why do they want to control you? It's because thay want your life. Their exploitation comes from their delusion that they are superior - superior to the point of being God. If they are God then they need to emulate him by creating new life. This they patently cannot do, so they do the next best thing fooling themselves it is the same - they steal it (or so they think). Hence we have exploitation from the petty to the monumental, despotic employers and governments, slavery, blood drinking, ritual killing and cannibalism.
And it's all based on a lie.
We all have a lot more hope than you may think. You would not be reading this and even posting negative comments if you didn't because you would truly believe there was no point. Hoping there is hope is still hope!
The ramping up of abuse and terror in our society is designed to take away your hope so everything else can follow. But the reality is they cannot take it away, you have to give it away.

12:06 AM  
Anonymous Tronicus said...

IMO, Steven Lagavulin above, sums it up excellently, with his essayette on...

Hope for the Best,
Prepare for the Worst,
Accept what Comes.

Preparing and hoping are both rational, and reality affirming. Combined with acceptance they form a quintessential trinity relationship. Excellent Steve, this wisdom is worth taking a very deep drink of.
Hope is part of another famous, and closely aligned, trinity relationship: Faith, Hope, and Love. With all genuine, positive trinities, the combining of the three in unity accomplishes the greatest good. As Steve adroitly points out, it is disadvantageous to separate them.

1:01 AM  
Blogger M.J.A.Cole said...

Jeff,
dont hold back on your deep musings. I for one wish to sit beside your digital fireplace after a hard days work and listen intently to your tales of the multi-verse and all the strange goings on in it. My own life has been filled with things strange and unexplainable ( including real live 30 minuet sighting of giant triangular black silent vehicle ) and I find the weak bleating of naysayers that plead with you to 'cheer up , dude'completly missing the points that you raise. Many times the people have had to be led kicking and screaming to the fire and have their feet held up to it, so as to awaken them from their ancient slumber. I for one aplaude your insights.

3:10 AM  
Blogger CF-ICT said...

Jeff,

In the Ethics, Part IV, Proposition 67, Spinoza writes "a free man thinks of death least of all things; and his wisdom is a meditation not of death but of life."

Dylan and Spinoza, Jews both, Plebians both.

10:12 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The thing about Bob Dylan is the SOUND - words plus music - astonishingly evocative poetry wedded to an emotional sound that gives you all the clues you need. Nobody could listen to him sing that song and feel despair, it's all about triumph. Thanks Jeff, for an excellent site.

11:01 AM  
Anonymous manxkat said...

Thanks Jeff for yet more thought provoking commentary. I'm still relatively new here, but find this site and your RI forum a refreshing change of pace from the alternative leftist media, which has let us all down from 9/11 to election fraud. If a media outlet is afraid to confront ALL questions and topics, it's doing a disservice. So, thank you Jeff.

Jim (above), your comments were wonderful, especially these lines: Hoping there is hope is still hope!
The ramping up of abuse and terror in our society is designed to take away your hope so everything else can follow. But the reality is they cannot take it away, you have to give it away.


Those words are really what I need to remind me that I'm in control of my destiny, even if I'm rounded up and imprisoned and tortured. I can't thank you enough for these words of wisdom and truth. My fear is much abated this morning and I feel much more at ease. Cheers!

11:42 AM  
Anonymous Dream's End said...

That Nigerian email was a hoax?


Crap.

1:23 PM  
Anonymous Ellie said...

Jeff said:
"All sinister forces share the trait of vampirism: they draw strength by consuming our blood, our fear, our minds, our awe..."

which is pretty much what I have been trying to say. But maybe Jeff you aren't seeing the logical conclusion of this...that by talking about them as much as you do, by assigning them power - you are making them more real and more dark.

I'm not advocating 'cheer' up' in some mindless idiot way (as some speed-reader seems to think I am). I'm saying, don't be one of those unwittingly feeding the dark side by talking it up and up and up.

If the universe is mind-stuff, and if the observer is also creator, then the act of seeing is one of great responsibility which we can't afford to abuse. We must be careful we don't make our phantasms and fears real by simply believing they are. That way we are part of the problem. Plugged into the matrix and helping to generate human pain.

And just to do a reality check - you know we don't really know there's any alien conspiracy, or any DNA-harvesting or anything. All we know is weird shit happens. What we think it means is all human construct and could be wholly wrong.

I think the whole 'alien,reptoid, small-gray, abduction' thing could be shaping up to be another religion, every bit as dogmatic and every bit as man-made and every bit as deluded in its rigid attempt to create hard forms out of the formless Other as every other religion has ever been, don't you think?

The free-thinkers of today can so easily become the dogmatists of tomorrow, once they have decided that they - unlike all previous free-thinkers - have happened on the 'truth'.

Let's not forget that

Ellie

1:32 PM  
Blogger Jeremiah said...

Huh?

6:29 PM  
Anonymous antiaristo said...

Ellie,
I believe the vampires do exist.
In order to overcome them, we need to understand them.
That's what Jeff is trying to do, on my reading.

They DON'T HAVE SOULS. That is what separates them from us.
They can't steal our souls unless we ourselves give them away.

All we need is the courage to cherish our own souls.

6:45 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Never deprive someone of hope: it may be all they have. — Unknown

6:57 PM  
Anonymous Cheeky Monkey said...

Ellie, I enjoy reading your commentary. Question for you: if the universe/existence is all 'mindstuff' (which I tend to believe), how can you speak of any kind of 'Other'? Other and Self is a false duality, no?

8:21 PM  
Blogger Wesley said...

I wonder if this blog is an unwitting honeypot for the collection of a list of likeminded folks.

I mean, it's certainly a sophisticated marketing tool to sell Jeff's next book, if its subject matter ends up at all related to the blog (no offense Jeff, and I plan to buy a copy myself), but that's no worse (and probably better) than Ruppert flogging "Rubicon" or gold funds.

The subject matter here is intriguing precisely because I don't fully agree with it. I'm certainly a CT aficionado, but I'm extremely skeptical of the interdimensional hypothesis. I think most things can be explained by sticking to this plane, and those that can't, while interesting, are usually distractions. So to the "cui bono" purists, I can see how this could be seen as contributing to some sort of psyop to link all related posters/information to "fringe" UFO theorists. And I'm 100% certain that disinfo operatives post in the comments here. So be rigorous.

But I'll keep coming back, and I love the Dylan references.

As for Hope -- I think human beings have an incredible capacity to overcome all sorts of darkness and evil. There's always hope.

9:21 PM  
Anonymous Jim said...

Jeff,

I omitted to thank you for your post. Well said (as usual!).

manxkat,
Thanks for the thanks. It's nice to get that sort of feedback. It means I didn't learn something for nothing. Well, not just for myself, anyway.

Faith, Hope & Charity (Compassion); I believe we are born with these qualities to help us make the only choice we need make in this life. To choose between Good & Evil. To put it other ways - between compassion & exploitation; between reality & lies; sanity & insanity. I could go on.
These choices are before us every day and we need to watch the seemingly insignificant ones because they lead on to the massive betrayals both of ourselves and others.
The perps try to keep you confused and stressed. You can do a lot for yourself simply by not telling lies to yourself and others. By not listening to lies from others. If you know the TV is lying to you, turn it off. If you know someone is deceiving you, walk away. If you can't reasonably walk away for some reason, ask just one question such as "how is that so?" rather than remaining quiet. You'll be amazed at how much more resilient you become and at the effect you can have on others by this example.
As George Orwell said (paraphrased) "In an age when deceit is universal, telling the truth is a revolutionary act".
In doing so, I believe our in built Faith, Hope And Compassion become stronger, despair dissipates and life becomes filled with energy. This is the meaning of "enthusiasm".
Start today!
Perps hate Truth above all else

12:48 AM  
Anonymous starroute said...

It's metaphors all the way down.

Gods are metaphors. Demons are metaphors.

Electrons and quarks are metaphors. So are electricity and gravitation.

And evolution.

Soul is a metaphor, as well as spirit. But then, matter is also a metaphor.

The basic fact of this existence is that we don't know shit -- and what we do know, we don't know very well.

Metaphors help us navigate the seas of our ignorance. If they are good metaphors, they will steer us in the right direction, at least for a while. If they are bad metaphors, they will set us running in circles until we capsize.

But even the best metaphor is a straight line, running tangent to the infinite curves of reality. It can only lead us right for a little while, until it carries us over the edge of a cliff.

This may amount to the same thing as my saying that the occult has a trickster nature. It isn't trying to trick us on purpose -- it merely follows its own curves, while we go veering off on tangents.

Of course, this image of curves and tangents is a metaphor as well, and not to be taken any more seriously than vampires or little grey men.

The best we can hope to do is hop lightly from metaphor to metaphor -- keeping in mind that (like the stepping stones on that ultra-silly Japanese game show) some will stay steady long enough for us to perch on them briefly, while others will collapse under us and drop us in the drink if we put our weight on them for more than an instant.

1:15 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Starroute:
Yes, exactly.
Thanks, you said it better than I could

Ellie

5:17 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"A little knowledge is a dangerous thing"

but I would add, "And will wear you out"

Maybe Jeff and Xymphroa are CIA - they are defineatly the upper crust. I find them very entertaining and smart as hell- I find enlightntment through face to face stuff.

Jeff amde me wonder when he said "find a safe place and ride it out, cause it's much bigger than us" in that interview he did with that other web site. But maybe he is right? I still feel like fighting, even if Justin Raimondo is questioning his own life.

"Read Chomsky!" Cool Stickers but he can be rough on your energy...what is the matter? "institutions" and if your not in that field you can't do too much to change things.

That Democratic Underground and Black Box Voting guy, can't remember his name...went to D.C. and came back with a nasty form of cancer. Wellstone went flying in not so good/not so bad weather and his plane crashes. Webb gets two in his head...but he is depressed, because they won't stop hounding him. Dr. Kelly, same story. HST, just too weird and weird timing to boot. Microbiologists and bankers and soilders returned from Iraq.

I don't have to go rooting around for police, gov. and hospital documents to prove anything. It is self evident.

And maybe all these "alt" media is set up to wear us out with pajama investigations then instill outrage fatiuge when the hard work is met with a big ho-hum, just to blur the big picture from us....or not.

This is not a Hollywood perversion like "true love" or "hot-shot lone hero" - which never happenes, as you know from life lessons. It just takes us to quit being flmoxed and know all the public control procedures are put in place by normal everyday preversion and it takes groups of normal everyday UNperverted humans to move them out of our way - quite simple really.

5:39 AM  
Blogger Monto said...

Jeff,

First off, thanks for the fantastic writing and steady info!

As for Ellie:

I am with Ellie in the sense that I don't want Jeff to get sucked into the very darkness he investigates. I am also with her in the sense that Hope and Love need to be emphasized.

However, Ellie and people like her can, unwittingly, be contributing to the problem.

I was horrified at the things Ellie had said she had seen. But she did not mention that she had done anything for those she saw suffering.

Does this ommission have anything to do with her distinctly nihilistic philosophy of oneness - in other words: Universal Love, with no, ultimately, real, object?

It seems, that believing that the world can be whatever she wishes it to be, is only a sorry coping mechanism.

Sorry, Ellie, but I've known a lot of good intentioned people in my life, who nevertheless had a very shaky, or should I say, shallow, concept of reality - and guess what? These good intentioned, yet deluded people, always ended up hurting people around them, including myself - all in the name of their good intentions!

So, why not check to see if there might be a plank in your own eye first ellie, before trying to 'help' others with your good intentions...

9:13 AM  
Anonymous ellie said...

Hi Monto -
you ask about whether I helped? Honey, I honestly don't know.

Have you heard of 'Medecins Sans Frontieres'? It's a collection of physicians etc who go about to places in the frontline of suffering. I figured it was a way for an MD to try and make a difference. So, you know that takes you all over, working to help put people back together. But half the time it does no good, and in many ways you are just the glue holding the bad situation together

Which is why I came to think the most important way of helping is to spread knowledge. I think if the God gave us anything it was our intellectual independence, our sense of justice and our ability to care about the truth - a total abstract after all with no survival value.

I think if we do our best to find the truth for ourselves and to pass on what we find I think that may be the best thing we can ever do in the end.

11:10 AM  
Anonymous lll said...

congrats, jeff; you've clearly touched a very sensitive nerve here with this 'hope' question.

for my 'money' (clearly NOT the appropriate metaphor here, but it gets the point across), i'm giving ellie all the kudos for grasping the importance and gravity of hope in the human condition, not to mention possessing the experience to back it all up. allow me to say here, ellie, thank you for all that you have done with medicins sans frontiere; that institution, like precious few others, embodies the essence of hope in our culture. thank you, immensely.

if starroute is still reading, can i ask where you get your notions of metaphor and can we communicate about this? i have been framing a theory of metaphor over the past two decades, and hope to publish on it in the next year. 'it' most definitely IS metaphors all the way down (i even use this reference in my book!); however, the key is what the 'it' is we're referencing.

i would say this 'it' is mind.

and though there is some power in considering the notion that 'it' is 'all' mindstuff, i'd like to propose that, first, mind is in many ways the energy part of the physical, the E part of the E=Mc2 equation. and further, that there may actually be a plane or dimension that transcends both the physical and the mind and the relation between them, that which gives rise to both.

and even further, there is a way to both transcend this illusory dichotomy *and* a way to find and experience that core of one's self (that actually dissolves self altogether). interestingly this way has been suggested here already by one of the anonymous contributors who mentioned vipassana meditation. having been a practitioner myself for several years (metta, dhamma sibling!), i can attest to the efficacy, purity, and openness of this practice, and whole-heartedly recommend it to each and all. and for those skeptics out there who raise eyebrows at the thought of doing any such traditional and regimented thing, this is designed for you. the best practitioners are those who are fiercely independent thinkers and who question all realities and 'truths' except those they themselves can either test or judge. very empirical, very simple, very powerful.

vipassana is supposedly the technique that the buddha taught, and he was quite emphatic about stripping the pursuit of liberation without the trappings of ritual or icons or metaphors (including abstractions like 'soul'). it's just you and the universe, honey; get to work!

over the recent years of chaos and fear and evil run amok, this practice - just me and the universe - has given me more strength and grounded direction than any facts, any spiritual guidance, any abstract 'truths'. if you think about it, there is no truth but what you experience in any given instant, without fears or expectations or regrets about the past or future. and there is no reality but what you experience in any given instant without the mind's reflection on any of these abstract distractions. through this path, i've come to sense that, hope - being the twin of 'true' faith - is that place within our deepest selves that directs our best actions, that shapes our best choices, that moves our best understanding. if we find this place, even for brief moments here and there, we can endure any torment - physical or mental - knowing that there is this reality, this 'truth' that we have experienced that transcends the torment, and the evil that perpetrates it.

this practice provides the tools to transcend death so as to make fear of it seem silly. it also provides the tools to transcend mind so as to make its manic monkey madness seem merely amusing.

the hope that comes from this place is so far away from false as to become supreme knowledge; one KNOWS the mind and the body are transcendable because one has experienced this. and the universal love that arises naturally and spontaneously also transcends the SUBJECTIVE love that you reference, monto, in wondering what happens to the love for object. what emerges here is what the buddha taught; there is actually danger in love for specific objects, even if they be specific human individuals. it is here that we become trapped in attachments to the objects, their existence, our expectations of and for them, and on and on. it is ONLY through the expericne of universal love that we are able to remove ourselves and all those attachments from the relationship; to love any 'object' is to love ALL objects, all beings. this, monto, is the only path of true compassion.

so we all experience this sense of love and this sense of hope when we see those utterly vanquished souls still looking upward and still stepping forward. they do so in a transcendent KNOWLEDGE that the good prevails, and that liberation is only for those who choose the good in every moment.

so yeah, jeff; though i highly regard your concerns about false hope and the need for expressing the utter despair at the horrors now being unleashed, ...you do need to get out more. vipassana might be an interesting direction for you to consider.

and whomever else.... www.dhamma.org

for what it's worth, i did not in any way intend for this to be a vipassana pitch! that just happened. but it seems perfectly appropriate for this conversation. and this audience. we're in for a very bumpy ride, sports fans; we'll all do well to verse ourselves in the most powerful tools to deal with the absolute worst we can imagine in these times. for that, i can recommend nothing more highly.

5:38 PM  
Anonymous lll said...

ps.

i meant to add:

the deepest and truest hope is not in the ship coming in; it is in the knowledge that the ship is here, and we are on it!

like the man said.....

5:39 PM  
Anonymous starroute said...

lll -

My ideas on metaphor started off with trying to understand the appeal of science fiction (particularly those stories that couldn't be explained as simple escapism or juvenile wish-fulfillment) and concluding that it had to do with its ability to give concrete representation to certain intimations about the nature of the universe and our place in it that could not possibly be expressed in mundane terms.

At first I thought this was only true of those stories with an obviously allegorical nature, like Asimov's "Nightfall," but gradually I realized it was true of all science fiction (down to the most trivial space opera), of fantasy, and of myth and religion in general. From there, it became apparent to me that even the scenarios of science, the accounts of history, and contemporary newspaper stories are not merely collections of facts but provide a sort of code in which we can speak to one another about those things which transcend fact.

Language itself is metaphor piled on metaphor, with every word, every phrase, and every sentence being dependent on extensions of meaning from the specific to the general, from the concrete to the abstract, and from objective experience to the subjective and the ineffable.

If you'd like to correspond on this, I have a gmail account as starroute9. I'm interested as to your own sources.

6:37 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ellie said....

"Demons can kill us? Oh Jeff, sure they can, and they can take you down into the darkness - if that is what you choose to believe they can do. Man we all create our own reality don't you see? And if you are determined to fill yours with demons and despair then that is all you will find... Dare to hope."

Amen.

6:45 PM  
Blogger Monto said...

HAHAHAHAHA!

Ellie, I don't bow down to your experience or your age.

Maybe if we all just pretend that bad people are care bears, then the world will be perfect!

Your philosophy is unreal! It is shallow! Your philosphy is like a drug!

Well, ellie, the high don't last forever. Eventually you have to come down again. Then maybe we won't have to hear you preaching your one-step methodto happiness!

8:49 PM  
Anonymous lll said...

well, folks, we can thank monto for giving us a graphic demonstration of what jeff was referring to in the notion that 'they' are afraid of us. that nervous laughter, that snide, rude dismissal, the utter irony of missing the irony of his own projections and thus hypocrisy.

and the exposure of so completely missing the point as to existing on another planet entirely.

if all you could get out of this discussion, and out of ellie's contribution, is that more care bears would make a perfect world, then your entire cortex is out of joint, monto.

if your response were not so sad it would be irritating for its inanity. i 'hope' you can get a clue before you implode from your own cynical self-loathing.

truly.

9:40 PM  
Anonymous dagnabit said...

"Faith, Hope & Charity (Compassion); I believe we are born with these qualities to help us make the only choice we need make in this life. To choose between Good & Evil. To put it other ways - between compassion & exploitation; between reality & lies; sanity & insanity."
And in the final analysis, the root dichotomy is love vs fear. All that we consider bad or evil is based in fear and all of us struggle to replace the one with the other. The perps have given up the struggle and succumbed--fear rules them and fear is all they have to offer. To see anyone content with a little while their own fear of want consumes them daily; to see the powerless content with the simple joy of living while their fear of life itself compels them to seize contol of even life's minutiae; to see people's talents and energy, intellect and compassion, blossom in an atmosphere of a free and tolerant social order serves only to highlight their own fear- driven inadequacies--all of that and so much more as fear can manifest in so many ways, both subtle and overt. They are a sad lot & on some deep, dark level they realize it but fail to imagine a way out. It is hardly a wonder they find their support amongst the most fearful and fear-driven groups in society. A good way to evaluate any action or motive-does it serve fear or does it serve love? No
matter what 'it' is, it cannot serve both.

"..distinctly nihilistic philosophy of oneness - in other words: Universal Love, with no, ultimately, real, object? It seems, that believing that the world can be whatever she wishes it to be, is only a sorry coping mechanism. Sorry, Ellie, but I've known a lot of good intentioned people in my life, who nevertheless had a very shaky, or should I say, shallow, concept of reality.."
Trapped as we are in the time & space warp of an earthly existence, the 'concept of reality' is a many-splendored thing indeed. The philosophy of oneness being distinctly nihilistic? One could just as easily and righteously state that notion itself is distinctly nihilistic. I suspect Ellie is looking at the bigger picture, beyond the earth-warp veil. Have you experienced Universal Love and thus concluded it is, ultimately, no real object? (no real object meaning?) I don't mean to be cantakerous and perhaps I have misunderstood you but I do believe there is much that is hidden from us in a universal sense and a 'show me', feet- firmly-planted stance, while certainly prudent in a world containing lions and tigers and Bushes, is nevertheless not the only stance available.

"I think the whole 'alien,reptoid, small-gray, abduction' thing could be shaping up to be another religion, every bit as dogmatic and every bit as man-made and every bit as deluded in its rigid attempt to create hard forms out of the formless Other as every other religion has ever been, don't you think?"
I suspect the govt has known about the aliens for quite some time. I also suspect the aliens have been relatively few and basically neutral--just checking us out. I wouldn't put it past the govt to 'false-flag' the aliens through some holographic or other psyop methods. The ultimate boogey-men to add to their techno-arsenal?

1:47 AM  
Blogger Monto said...

I agree with dagnabit. Again I agree that Love and Hope should be emphasized and I see the danger in being sucked into the darkness of this world. I also understand the omnipotent power of Love, and that in the end, nothing is more important than the Universal Love.

Yet, there is an aspect of this Universal Love, which is vastly underemphasized by many of its enthusiastic evangelists - and that aspect is: empathy. In order to have empathy, we must understand suffering, by having gone through it ourselves, but not just external suffering, the internal suffering that comes from inner conflict - even despair. In this sense, denying our own feelings when we should actually be feeling horrible, can make us into self-righteous people, who are unable to empathise with those who admit their suffering - their despair.

Both the pharisies and the sinners were 'sick' in reality, but the big difference was that the pharisies did not admit it, while it is easy for a prostitute, theif, tax-collecter etc. to admit that they are sick and need help. And the pharisies liked to preach to others and show how much better they were than others, and generally use their self-righteousness to oppress others.

What I'm saying, in the end, Ellie, is that you would help others better, myself included, if you emphasized more the empathy aspect of the Universal Love. You might even have to admit that you need help, before you can truly help others. Understanding the suffering of others, by admitting our own suffering to ourselves, is what I mean when I imply that Real Love must have a Real Object.

Whether evil, in the end, is real, or a phantasm (personally I think it is a phantasm) is irrelevant to our ability to empathise. To the person suffering, the evil is real and so is their despair. Even if all the evil is just an illusion, a self-deception (and I think it is), we must enter into the illusory world of those who are suffering in order to help them.

Personally, I empathised with Jeff's post, because it mirrored the despair I often feel when I am overwhelmed by my own illusory world. I'd like to break free completely, and sometimes it seems like I do, but I'm no god or saint or yogi, nor have I achieved enlightenment - so, I'm still struggling, and falling, and getting up, or more often, being helped up by others, and then falling again.

But you know, having fallen so many times, I have come to realize that a helping hand, or even a shoulder, is a lot more help to me, than advice from a person who seems to have it all figured out.

So, Jeff, please keep writing whatever is in your heart. Continue your journey and your struggle honestly. You are a great help to me, though I can't exactly explain how. I don't worship darkness, or fear, or despair. On the contrary, I put my faith in Love, the Love that is so big and complex that I'll never understand it completely. And I want success and happiness as much as anyone. Nevertheless, Jeff, this post, at the specific time I read it, helped me a lot. Maybe when I'm feeling better, it won't be any help to me, but that's fine - it can help someone else. And maybe it won't help people who are feeling good, but that's alright - they're already feeling good anyway, right?

7:23 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Jeff said...

"Ellie, I should get out more, and I'm just about to. But I'm not a nihilist. The post was about authentic hope, not inauthentic despair. If my hope looks like your despair, then I suppose I envy you. But I'm not you."

7:47 AM  
Anonymous Jim said...

This is a rewarding thread.
Dagnabit: regarding Love Vs Fear being the primary choice, I don't see it that way because we all have fear but we make different choices. There are those who will assuage their fear by becoming superior through exploitation of others and generating more fear in the process and so forcing yet more into choosing to, or not to, pass on the exploitation and fear. On the other hand there are those who simply will not use someone else for their own needs. This choice springs from compassion (Love) for others and takes courage. (And you cannot have courage without fear being present.) What was done to them becomes anathema. So its love Vs exploitation (or power if you like) not fear. Fear is common to all. It is how you respond to it that separates the wheat from the chaff.

I enjoyed reading your post, Monto, but I can assure you that evil is real rather than imaginary or simply the lack of something. However, there is no way of perceiving it until it comes knocking at your door; until you experience it. This is in no way a criticism (as I have no wish for anyone to experience it because it changes your life permanently). It's just a fact.
Regards

8:12 AM  
Blogger Ministry of Truth said...

Just see how the Fintan Dunnie's bullshit was debunked:
http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m14419&l=i&size=1&hd=0

12:06 PM  
Blogger Monto said...

Well said, Jim.

4:30 PM  
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4:01 PM  
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4:28 PM  
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2:41 AM  
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Mengapa kutil bisa tumbuh di alat kelamin pria serta bagaimana mengobatinya, kutil tumbuh di sekitar kelamin pria bisa tumbuh pada batang penis pria, ujung penis pria, pangkal penis pria bahkan bisa tumbuh di sekitar anus pria. hal ini karena di sebabkan oleh virus yang bernama HPV (human papilloma Virus) sebelum melakukan pengobatan terlebih dahulu akan saya jelaskan mengenai virus HPV ini sehingga nanti kedepannya khsusunya untuk kaum pria dapat menjaga diri agar terhindar dari penyakit ini.

2:41 AM  
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2:42 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mengapa kutil bisa tumbuh di alat kelamin pria serta bagaimana mengobatinya, kutil tumbuh di sekitar kelamin pria bisa tumbuh pada batang penis pria, ujung penis pria, pangkal penis pria bahkan bisa tumbuh di sekitar anus pria. hal ini karena di sebabkan oleh virus yang bernama HPV (human papilloma Virus) sebelum melakukan pengobatan terlebih dahulu akan saya jelaskan mengenai virus HPV ini sehingga nanti kedepannya khsusunya untuk kaum pria dapat menjaga diri agar terhindar dari penyakit ini.

2:42 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mengapa kutil bisa tumbuh di alat kelamin pria serta bagaimana mengobatinya, kutil tumbuh di sekitar kelamin pria bisa tumbuh pada batang penis pria, ujung penis pria, pangkal penis pria bahkan bisa tumbuh di sekitar anus pria. hal ini karena di sebabkan oleh virus yang bernama HPV (human papilloma Virus) sebelum melakukan pengobatan terlebih dahulu akan saya jelaskan mengenai virus HPV ini sehingga nanti kedepannya khsusunya untuk kaum pria dapat menjaga diri agar terhindar dari penyakit ini.

2:42 AM  
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2:36 AM  
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2:37 AM  
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3:25 AM  
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4:21 AM  
Blogger obatwasir alami said...

Wasir atau ambeien adalah penyakit yang terjadi pada bagian anus, jenis wasir atau ambeien sendiri ada dua yaitu wasir atau ambeien dalam dan wasir atau ambeien luar. Dalam penangananya sendiri wasir atau ambeien dapat disembuhkan dengan dua jalan yaitu pengobatan medis dan pengobatan non medis atau pengobatan alternatif. Pengobatan alternatif disini salah satu pilihanya adalah dengan menggunakan tanaman herbal atau dengan ramuan tradisional. Ambeclear dan Salep Salwa adalah hasil pengolahan tanaman herbal daun ungu, kunyit putih, dan mahkota dewa yang telah terbukti ampuh mengatasi wasir atau ambeien baik wasir stadium satu, stadium dua, stadium tiga maupun stadium akhir atau stadium empat. Wasir berdarah, wasir yang telah kronis, semua dapat diatasi dengan menggunakan obat ini selain ampuh obat ini juga aman dan tidak menimbulkan efek samping apapun bagi penggunanya sehingga obat ambeclear ini aman dikonsumsi oleh penderita wasir yang sedang hamil maupun menyusui.

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Cara Menghilangkan kutil Di Kelamin Pria
Di Sekitar Penis Tumbuh Kutil ? Obatnya Apa ?
Berbahayakah Kutil Kelamin
Penyebab Kutil Kelamin Condyloma Acuminata
Tanda-Tanda Kutil Kelamin Condyloma Acuminata
Obat Kutil di Batang Zakar
Obat Kutil Di Kemaluan Wanita | Penyakit Kelamin Wanita
Obat Penghilang Kutil Kelamin
Tanda-Tanda Kutil Kelamin Condyloma Acuminata Di Bibir Vagina
obat jengger ayam untuk wanita
Kutil Di Alat Kelamin Serta Cara Menghilangkanya
Obat Kutil Kelamin Tradisional
Obat Kutil Pada Memek | Cara Menyembuhkan Kutil Pada Kemaluan Wanita
Penyembuhan Kutil Di Bibir Vagina | Penyakit Kelamin Kutil
Penyebab Kutil Kelamin dan Cara Penyembuhanya
Obat Kutil Kelamin
Obat Kutil Kelamin Wanita
Tanda-Tanda Kutil Kelamin Condyloma Acuminata Di Bibir Memek
Cara Menghilangkan Kutil Di Kemaluan | Vagina, Anus, Atau Penis Tumbuh Kutil
Obat Menghilangkan Kutil Di Bibir Vagina
Tumbuh Kutil di Penis Dan Anus | Obat Herbal Penyakit Kelamin
Kenapa Ada Kutil Di bibir Vagina ? Cara mengobatinya Bagaimana?
Tanda-Tanda Kutil Kelamin Condyloma Acuminata Pada Wanita
Obat Kutil di Kemaluan Pria | PENYAKIT KELAMIN JENGGER AYAM
Kutil Kelamin Condyloma Acuminata Pada Bibir Memek
Tanda-Tanda Kutil Kelamin Condyloma Acuminata Pada Ibu Hamil
Cara Menghilangkan kutil Di Kelamin Pria
Di Sekitar Penis Tumbuh Kutil ? Obatnya Apa ?

9:56 PM  
Blogger Tina Mulya said...

Berbahayakah Kutil Kelamin
Penyebab Kutil Kelamin Condyloma Acuminata
Tanda-Tanda Kutil Kelamin Condyloma Acuminata
Obat Kutil di Batang Zakar
Obat Kutil Di Kemaluan Wanita | Penyakit Kelamin Wanita
Obat Penghilang Kutil Kelamin
Tanda-Tanda Kutil Kelamin Condyloma Acuminata Di Bibir Vagina
obat jengger ayam untuk wanita
Kutil Di Alat Kelamin Serta Cara Menghilangkanya
Obat Kutil Kelamin Tradisional
Obat Kutil Pada Memek | Cara Menyembuhkan Kutil Pada Kemaluan Wanita
Penyembuhan Kutil Di Bibir Vagina | Penyakit Kelamin Kutil
Penyebab Kutil Kelamin dan Cara Penyembuhanya
Obat Kutil Kelamin
Obat Kutil Kelamin Wanita
Tanda-Tanda Kutil Kelamin Condyloma Acuminata Di Bibir Memek
Cara Menghilangkan Kutil Di Kemaluan | Vagina, Anus, Atau Penis Tumbuh Kutil
Menghilangkan Kutil Di Bibir Vagina
Tumbuh Kutil di Penis Dan Anus | Obat Herbal Penyakit Kelamin
Kenapa Ada Kutil Di bibir Vagina ? Cara mengobatinya Bagaimana?
Tanda-Tanda Kutil Kelamin Condyloma Acuminata Pada Wanita
Obat Kutil di Kemaluan Pria | PENYAKIT KELAMIN JENGGER AYAM
Kutil Kelamin Condyloma Acuminata Pada Bibir Memek
Tanda-Tanda Kutil Kelamin Condyloma Acuminata Pada Ibu Hamil
Cara Menghilangkan kutil Di Kelamin Pria
Di Sekitar Penis Tumbuh Kutil ? Obatnya Apa ?
Berbahayakah Kutil Kelamin
Penyebab Kutil Kelamin Condyloma Acuminata
Tanda-Tanda Kutil Kelamin Condyloma Acuminata
Obat Kutil di Batang Zakar
Obat Kutil Di Kemaluan Wanita | Penyakit Kelamin Wanita
Obat Penghilang Kutil Kelamin
Tanda-Tanda Kutil Kelamin Condyloma Acuminata Di Bibir Vagina
obat jengger ayam untuk wanita
Kutil Di Alat Kelamin Serta Cara Menghilangkanya
Obat Kutil Kelamin Tradisional
Obat Kutil Pada Memek | Cara Menyembuhkan Kutil Pada Kemaluan Wanita
Penyembuhan Kutil Di Bibir Vagina | Penyakit Kelamin Kutil
Penyebab Kutil Kelamin dan Cara Penyembuhanya
obat jengger ayam untuk wanita

9:58 PM  
Blogger Tina Mulya said...

Kutil Di Alat Kelamin Serta Cara Menghilangkanya
Obat Kutil Kelamin Tradisional
Obat Kutil Pada Memek | Cara Menyembuhkan Kutil Pada Kemaluan Wanita
Penyembuhan Kutil Di Bibir Vagina | Penyakit Kelamin Kutil
Penyebab Kutil Kelamin dan Cara Penyembuhanya
Obat Kutil Kelamin
Obat Kutil Kelamin Wanita
Tanda-Tanda Kutil Kelamin Condyloma Acuminata Di Bibir Memek
Cara Menghilangkan Kutil Di Kemaluan | Vagina, Anus, Atau Penis Tumbuh Kutil
Obat Menghilangkan Kutil Di Bibir Vagina
Tumbuh Kutil di Penis Dan Anus | Obat Herbal Penyakit Kelamin
Kenapa Ada Kutil Di bibir Vagina ? Cara mengobatinya Bagaimana?
Tanda-Tanda Kutil Kelamin Condyloma Acuminata Pada Wanita
Obat Kutil di Kemaluan Pria | PENYAKIT KELAMIN JENGGER AYAM
Kutil Kelamin Condyloma Acuminata Pada Bibir Memek
Tanda-Tanda Kutil Kelamin Condyloma Acuminata Pada Ibu Hamil
Cara Menghilangkan kutil Di Kelamin Pria
Di Sekitar Penis Tumbuh Kutil ? Obatnya Apa ?
Berbahayakah Kutil Kelamin
Penyebab Kutil Kelamin Condyloma Acuminata
Tanda-Tanda Kutil Kelamin Condyloma Acuminata
Obat Kutil di Batang Zakar
Obat Kutil Di Kemaluan Wanita | Penyakit Kelamin Wanita
Obat Penghilang Kutil Kelamin
Tanda-Tanda Kutil Kelamin Condyloma Acuminata Di Bibir Vagina
obat jengger ayam untuk wanita
Kutil Di Alat Kelamin Serta Cara Menghilangkanya
Obat Kutil Kelamin Tradisional
Obat Kutil Pada Memek | Cara Menyembuhkan Kutil Pada Kemaluan Wanita
Penyembuhan Kutil Di Bibir Vagina | Penyakit Kelamin Kutil
Penyebab Kutil Kelamin dan Cara Penyembuhanya
Obat Kutil Kelamin
Obat Kutil Kelamin Wanita
Tanda-Tanda Kutil Kelamin Condyloma Acuminata Di Bibir Memek
Cara Menghilangkan Kutil Di Kemaluan | Vagina, Anus, Atau Penis Tumbuh Kutil
Obat Menghilangkan Kutil Di Bibir Vagina
Tumbuh Kutil di Penis Dan Anus | Obat Herbal Penyakit Kelamin

9:59 PM  
Blogger Tina Mulya said...

Kenapa Ada Kutil Di bibir Vagina ? Cara mengobatinya Bagaimana?
Tanda-Tanda Kutil Kelamin Condyloma Acuminata Pada Wanita
Obat Kutil di Kemaluan Pria | PENYAKIT KELAMIN JENGGER AYAM
Kutil Kelamin Condyloma Acuminata Pada Bibir Memek
Tanda-Tanda Kutil Kelamin Condyloma Acuminata Pada Ibu Hamil
Cara Menghilangkan kutil Di Kelamin Pria
Di Sekitar Penis Tumbuh Kutil ? Obatnya Apa ?
Berbahayakah Kutil Kelamin
Penyebab Kutil Kelamin Condyloma Acuminata
Tanda-Tanda Kutil Kelamin Condyloma Acuminata
Obat Kutil di Batang Zakar
Obat Kutil Di Kemaluan Wanita | Penyakit Kelamin Wanita
Obat Penghilang Kutil Kelamin
Tanda-Tanda Kutil Kelamin Condyloma Acuminata Di Bibir Vagina
obat jengger ayam untuk wanita
Kutil Di Alat Kelamin Serta Cara Menghilangkanya
Obat Kutil Kelamin Tradisional
Obat Kutil Pada Memek | Cara Menyembuhkan Kutil Pada Kemaluan Wanita
Penyembuhan Kutil Di Bibir Vagina | Penyakit Kelamin Kutil
Penyebab Kutil Kelamin dan Cara Penyembuhanya
Obat Kutil Kelamin
Obat Kutil Kelamin Wanita
Tanda-Tanda Kutil Kelamin Condyloma Acuminata Di Bibir Memek
Cara Menghilangkan Kutil Di Kemaluan | Vagina, Anus, Atau Penis Tumbuh Kutil
Obat Menghilangkan Kutil Di Bibir Vagina
Tumbuh Kutil di Penis Dan Anus | Obat Herbal Penyakit Kelamin
Kenapa Ada Kutil Di bibir Vagina ? Cara mengobatinya Bagaimana?
Tanda-Tanda Kutil Kelamin Condyloma Acuminata Pada Wanita
Obat Kutil di Kemaluan Pria | PENYAKIT KELAMIN JENGGER AYAM
Kutil Kelamin Condyloma Acuminata Pada Bibir Memek
Tanda-Tanda Kutil Kelamin Condyloma Acuminata Pada Ibu Hamil
Cara Menghilangkan kutil Di Kelamin Pria
Di Sekitar Penis Tumbuh Kutil ? Obatnya Apa ?
Berbahayakah Kutil Kelamin
Penyebab Kutil Kelamin Condyloma Acuminata
Tanda-Tanda Kutil Kelamin Condyloma Acuminata
Obat Kutil di Batang Zakar

10:00 PM  
Blogger Tina Mulya said...

Obat Kutil Di Kemaluan Wanita | Penyakit Kelamin Wanita
Obat Penghilang Kutil Kelamin
Tanda-Tanda Kutil Kelamin Condyloma Acuminata Di Bibir Vagina
obat jengger ayam untuk wanita
Kutil Di Alat Kelamin Serta Cara Menghilangkanya
Obat Kutil Kelamin Tradisional
Obat Kutil Pada Memek | Cara Menyembuhkan Kutil Pada Kemaluan Wanita
Penyembuhan Kutil Di Bibir Vagina | Penyakit Kelamin Kutil
Penyebab Kutil Kelamin dan Cara Penyembuhanya
Obat Penyakit kutil Kelamin Wanita (sudah di komen)
Tanda-Tanda Kutil Kelamin Condyloma Acuminata Pada Ibu Hamil
Cara Menghilangkan kutil Di Kelamin Pria
Di Sekitar Penis Tumbuh Kutil ? Obatnya Apa ?
Berbahayakah Kutil Kelamin
Penyebab Kutil Kelamin Condyloma Acuminata
Tanda-Tanda Kutil Kelamin Condyloma Acuminata
Obat Kutil di Batang Zakar
Obat Kutil Di Kemaluan Wanita | Penyakit Kelamin Wanita
Obat Penghilang Kutil Kelamin
Tanda-Tanda Kutil Kelamin Condyloma Acuminata Di Bibir Vagina
obat jengger ayam untuk wanita
Kutil Di Alat Kelamin Serta Cara Menghilangkanya
obat kutil kelamin tradisional
Obat Kutil Pada Memek | Cara Menyembuhkan Kutil Pada Kemaluan Wanita
Penyembuhan Kutil Di Bibir Vagina | Penyakit Kelamin Kutil
Penyebab Kutil Kelamin dan Cara Penyembuhanya
Tanda-Tanda Kutil Kelamin Condyloma Acuminata Di Bibir Memek
Cara Menghilangkan Kutil Di Kemaluan | Vagina, Anus, Atau Penis Tumbuh Kutil
Obat Menghilangkan Kutil Di Bibir Vagina
Tumbuh Kutil di Penis Dan Anus | Obat Herbal Penyakit Kelamin
Kenapa Ada Kutil Di bibir Vagina ? Cara mengobatinya Bagaimana?
Tanda-Tanda Kutil Kelamin Condyloma Acuminata Pada Wanita
Obat Kutil di Kemaluan Pria | PENYAKIT KELAMIN JENGGER AYAM
Kutil Kelamin Condyloma Acuminata Pada Bibir Memek
Obat Penyakit kutil Kelamin Wanita
Tanda-Tanda Kutil Kelamin Condyloma Acuminata Pada Ibu Hamil
Cara Menghilangkan kutil Di Kelamin Pria
Di Sekitar Penis Tumbuh Kutil ? Obatnya Apa ?
Berbahayakah Kutil Kelamin

10:01 PM  
Blogger Tina Mulya said...

Penyebab Kutil Kelamin Condyloma Acuminata
Tanda-Tanda Kutil Kelamin Condyloma Acuminata
Obat Kutil di Batang Zakar
Obat Kutil Di Kemaluan Wanita | Penyakit Kelamin Wanita
Obat Penghilang Kutil Kelamin
Tanda-Tanda Kutil Kelamin Condyloma Acuminata Di Bibir Vagina
obat jengger ayam untuk wanita
Kutil Di Alat Kelamin Serta Cara Menghilangkanya
obat kutil kelamin tradisional
Obat Kutil Pada Memek | Cara Menyembuhkan Kutil Pada Kemaluan Wanita
Penyembuhan Kutil Di Bibir Vagina | Penyakit Kelamin Kutil
Penyebab Kutil Kelamin dan Cara Penyembuhanya
Tanda-Tanda Kutil Kelamin Condyloma Acuminata Di Bibir Memek
Cara Menghilangkan Kutil Di Kemaluan | Vagina, Anus, Atau Penis Tumbuh Kutil
Obat Menghilangkan Kutil Di Bibir Vagina
Tumbuh Kutil di Penis Dan Anus | Obat Herbal Penyakit Kelamin
Kenapa Ada Kutil Di bibir Vagina ? Cara mengobatinya Bagaimana?
Tanda-Tanda Kutil Kelamin Condyloma Acuminata Pada Wanita
Obat Kutil di Kemaluan Pria | PENYAKIT KELAMIN JENGGER AYAM
Kutil Kelamin Condyloma Acuminata Pada Bibir Memek
Obat Penyakit kutil Kelamin Wanita
Tanda-Tanda Kutil Kelamin Condyloma Acuminata Pada Ibu Hamil
Cara Menghilangkan kutil Di Kelamin Pria
Di Sekitar Penis Tumbuh Kutil ? Obatnya Apa ?
Berbahayakah Kutil Kelamin
Penyebab Kutil Kelamin Condyloma Acuminata
Tanda-Tanda Kutil Kelamin Condyloma Acuminata
Obat Kutil di Batang Zakar
Obat Kutil Di Kemaluan Wanita | Penyakit Kelamin Wanita
Obat Penghilang Kutil Kelamin
Tanda-Tanda Kutil Kelamin Condyloma Acuminata Di Bibir Vagina
obat jengger ayam untuk wanita
Kutil Di Alat Kelamin Serta Cara Menghilangkanya
obat kutil kelamin tradisional
Obat Kutil Pada Memek | Cara Menyembuhkan Kutil Pada Kemaluan Wanita
Penyembuhan Kutil Di Bibir Vagina Dan Definisi Penyakit Kelamin Kutil
Penyebab Kutil Kelamin dan Cara Penyembuhanya

10:03 PM  
Blogger Tina Mulya said...

Penyebab Kutil Kelamin Condyloma Acuminata
Tanda-Tanda Kutil Kelamin Condyloma Acuminata
Obat Kutil di Batang Zakar
Obat Kutil Di Kemaluan Wanita | Penyakit Kelamin Wanita
Obat Penghilang Kutil Kelamin
Tanda-Tanda Kutil Kelamin Condyloma Acuminata Di Bibir Vagina
obat jengger ayam untuk wanita
Kutil Di Alat Kelamin Serta Cara Menghilangkanya
obat kutil kelamin tradisional
Obat Kutil Pada Memek | Cara Menyembuhkan Kutil Pada Kemaluan Wanita
Penyembuhan Kutil Di Bibir Vagina | Penyakit Kelamin Kutil
Penyebab Kutil Kelamin dan Cara Penyembuhanya
Tanda-Tanda Kutil Kelamin Condyloma Acuminata Di Bibir Memek
Cara Menghilangkan Kutil Di Kemaluan | Vagina, Anus, Atau Penis Tumbuh Kutil
Obat Menghilangkan Kutil Di Bibir Vagina
Tumbuh Kutil di Penis Dan Anus | Obat Herbal Penyakit Kelamin
Kenapa Ada Kutil Di bibir Vagina ? Cara mengobatinya Bagaimana?
Tanda-Tanda Kutil Kelamin Condyloma Acuminata Pada Wanita
Obat Kutil di Kemaluan Pria | PENYAKIT KELAMIN JENGGER AYAM
Kutil Kelamin Condyloma Acuminata Pada Bibir Memek
Obat Penyakit kutil Kelamin Wanita
Tanda-Tanda Kutil Kelamin Condyloma Acuminata Pada Ibu Hamil
Cara Menghilangkan kutil Di Kelamin Pria
Di Sekitar Penis Tumbuh Kutil ? Obatnya Apa ?
Berbahayakah Kutil Kelamin

10:05 PM  
Blogger Tina Mulya said...

Penyebab Kutil Kelamin Condyloma Acuminata
Tanda-Tanda Kutil Kelamin Condyloma Acuminata
Obat Kutil di Batang Zakar
Obat Kutil Di Kemaluan Wanita | Penyakit Kelamin Wanita
Obat Penghilang Kutil Kelamin
Tanda-Tanda Kutil Kelamin Condyloma Acuminata Di Bibir Vagina
obat jengger ayam untuk wanita
Kutil Di Alat Kelamin Serta Cara Menghilangkanya
Obat Penyakit kutil Kelamin Wanita
Tanda-Tanda Kutil Kelamin Condyloma