Thursday, January 26, 2006

Full Spectral Dominance (Part Two)



In dreams I walk with you
In dreams I talk to you - Roy Orbison


Dr Albert Hoffman, the "father of LSD," but perhaps better described as its midwife, turned 100 a few days ago. Like so many other things we trip over this fraught century, lysergic acid diethylamide first appeared in Nazi-dominated Europe, and first through dreams and intuition.

Hoffman was looking for compounds that induced muscle contraction. After synthesizing LSD and testing it on animals to no useful effect Hoffman's research moved on. But strangely, he began to dream repeatedly about its molecular structure, and was gripped by a "peculiar presentiment" that compelled him, five years later, to resynthesize the compound and ingest it intentionally.

"In the annals of science," Daniel Pinchbeck writes in Breaking Open the Head, "it is notable that many scientific insights first appear in dreams and visions":

The German chemist Friedrich Kekule, for instance, dreamt of a snake with its tail in its mouth, and understood that the molecular structure of benzene was a closed carbon ring. The French mathematician Jules-Henri Poincaré, during a sleepless night, saw mathematical symbols colliding until they coalesced into equations. These intuitive levels of insight, whether scientific or artistic, function like the prophetic dreams of shamans.... Hoffman's discovery of LSD was that kind of insight - a flash from a deeper order of the self or, perhaps, from outside the self entirely.


How did the Amazonian shamans come to discover their complex psychoactive compound of ayahuasca? They say the plants taught them in dreams. And intuition seemed to lead the synthesis of DMT in 1931, nearly 20 years before it was discovered to be a naturally occuring alkaloid in plants. (It wasn't until 1972 that it was found to be an endogenous compound, produced by the human brain.)

Pinchbeck records his ceremonial ingestion of ayahuasca:

The hallucinations started to deepen into a realm that I could not recognize, that I lack language to describe. I found myself wandering across a shimmering space with beings that never stopped changing - porcupine-quilled, tusked, multitongued, amoebic, but even those words are only approximations of entities that could be compared to the darker imaginings of HP Lovecraft. The shaman and the elders seemed to be inhabiting this space with me. Glowing in the light cast by the fire, their features seemed animated by an almost nonhuman intensity. They sang, their words unintelligible, to these creatures, interacting with them, in mystical communion. It seemed that this was the goal of the ayahuasca ceremony, the arrival point. These were "the heavenly people."

The scene is similar to that described by Robert Monroe in Journeys Out of the Body of a hellish layer close to our mundane reality through which he would pass while projecting his astral self, which felt like bait above "a gray-black hungry ocean where the slightest motion attracts nibbling and tormenting beings." He writes that "it is easy to conclude that a momentary penetration of this nearby layer would bring 'demons' and 'devils' to mind as the chief inhabitants." It also recalls the hallucinatory witness to shapeshifting in some accounts of mind control survivors.

DMT frequently induces similar visions of interstellar voids, hungry insectoid intelligences and abduction scenarios indistinguishable from those of UFO encounters, including alien intercourse. Here "Rex" describes his controlled injection in Dr Rick Strassman's DMT: The Spirit Molecule:

When I was first going under there were these insect creatures all around me. They were clearly trying to break through. I was fighting letting go of who I am or was.... They were interested in emotion. As I was holding on to my last thought, that God equals love, they said, "Even here? Even here?" I said, "Yes, of course." They were still there but I was making love to them at the same time. They feasted as they made love to me.... The thought came to me with certainty that they were manipulating my DNA, changing its structure.

Strassman ended his clinical studies of the drug in part because he gave serious weight to the warning of a "highly intuitive" friend who told him she saw "evil spirits hovering around you. They want to come through this plane, using you and the drugs."

If there are many dimensions beyond, or behind, those we normally inhabit, it would seem by the congruity of experience that there are a variety of means to their unlocking. Yet all of them - occult workings, remote viewing, astral projection, UFO abductions and shamanic chemistry - share the trait of inducing altered states of consciousness. And something else they share is the abiding, deep attention of military intelligence.

At this point, someone's likely to mention the "holographic universe" and its alleged implication that "nothing is real." Perhaps instead it means that everything is real, including the "imaginal realm" described by French Islamic scholar Henry Corbin in his 1972 work, Mundis Imaginalis:

Upon returning [from a mystical vision] the beholders of this world are perfectly aware of having been "elsewhere": they are not mere schizophrenics. This world is hidden behind the very act of sense perception and has to be sought underneath its apparent objective certainty. For this reason we definitely cannot qualify it as being imaginary in the current sense of the word, ie, unreal or nonexistent. [It] is ontologically as real as the world of the senses and that of the intellect [perceived by] the "psychospiritual senses."

Psychologist Kenneth Ring talks of "the shamanizing of modern humanity" in his book The Omega Project, which studies the commonality of Near-Death Experience and UFO encounters. Ring writes that "we could be in the beginning stages of a major shift in levels of consciousness that will eventually lead to humanity's being able to live in two worlds at once - the physical and the imaginal." He believes that NDEs and UFOs, like the mystical and visionary states found in shamanic ritual, may be adventing at this time as an evolutionary aid towards the development of "latent capacities for imaginal perception."

I'm not sure I agree with Ring's rosy conclusions drawn from the evident thinning of the veil. I wonder instead whether a nexus of powerful parties on both sides of the portal with investments in control are conspiring to exploit gateways, the result of which may mean a near blunt-force stunting of the development of human consciousness.

I know this is highly speculative, but it's one of those crazy thoughts I have when I look up and see grids in the sky where there were none before, and marvel at the calculation behind our conspicuous dumbing down. What is it about us that is being suppressed, and who most profits by it?

140 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

a good post. certainly the common denominator of these phonemona, mostly drugs, is military intel. the kind of "spirituality" they draw in and tap into is devoid of body and more so of heart ingeration. it is "bright light" that kills. drugs are the worst, because one is defenseless, they can always poison the water or the air. Since ALL military intel, of all countries are IN IT, one should view them as a cult of their own, propagating death for its own sake. War should be banned, as slavery was. it is not beyond us to divert all efforts to that goal. Imagine there are no borders and no religions too...its already here, and war is now purely business of a multinational elite.

4:03 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Jeff,

With your latest article, I believe you've finally come to the beginning of what it is we should be collectively focusing on.

For instance, one might ask, what is it about entheogens, going back to the time of the Ancient Greeks and Christ (ergot), that exposes such primitive, evil, behavior on the part of those who control its distribution? What are "they" hiding?

Instead of looking for answers, we need to look for the right questions.

Well done Jeff. This is your best article yet.

I think we're getting closer....

4:07 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

lets start here:

"He believes that NDEs and UFOs, like the mystical and visionary states found in shamanic ritual, may be adventing at this time as an evolutionary aid towards the development of "latent capacities for imaginal perception."

I'm not sure I agree with Ring's rosy conclusions drawn from the evident thinning of the veil. I wonder instead whether a nexus of powerful parties on both sides of the portal with investments in control are conspiring to exploit gateways, the result of which may mean a near blunt-force stunting of the development of human consciousness.

I know this is highly speculative, but it's one of those crazy thoughts I have when I look up and see grids in the sky where there none before, and marvel at the calculation behind our conspicuous dumbing down. What is it about us that is being supressed, and who most profits by it?"


i can't speak to this idea of others from another dimension of the universe working to control us. i don't know about that.

i agree with you about holographic universe meaning everything is real.

but what this also means is that the imagination is a real thing, as you say, but maybe real as in it has the power to make things you fear that might be real, to appear real. when you have such expanded perception maybe you have the mental capacity to envision amazing or very scary things.

maybe the reason the military industrial black ops establishment is so focused on this stuff because the people who run the show believe this stuff exists and so they fund this crap to seek more powers. i personally think it leads no where, thankfully.

but to respond to strassman's idea that these paranormal phenomena are appearing at an excelerated rate: maybe its not the phenomena that is appearing more, but rather as humankind has evolved we are all starting to innately pick up on things we see seemingly by accident but we are actually seeing things without the need of such focused energy it may have required in generations past. that we are perceiving and seeing through different planes easier not because a veil has weakened but because we can see through it easier by ourselves.

and jeff can you describe this seeing grids in the sky? ive heard of it before. also, go watch the recently released movie What the bleep do we know?.

i think most of humanity is suppressed and continually supressed (this feeling of dumbing down) because most of the world's financial wealth is controlled by a mere 2% of the world's population. i don't mean to focus on just the money aspect so much, rather its that this 2% has the most power as well. if you have power (a really intangible concept created by man that is merely seemed tangible by fear) your going to try to maintain that power, keep it as concentrated as possible.

the way you do that is through televison, all media be it entertainment, news, music, movies or sports. you keep tight control on information that might make the mice, men again.

ok now, you ask whats being suppressed? most of humanity is. in every way. to keep us controlled.

the real what? they are suppressing our self worth and our dignity. if you can teach your captives to not value themselves, they won't put up such a fuss when you start rolling tanks down the streets because some small segment of society that understands whats happening can be suppressed as well.

and who profits? that 2% does.

that 2% also wants you to think they are in cohoots with interdimensionary beings to keep us paralyzed in fear, like a date rape drug.

a547@anonymous.to

4:32 PM  
Anonymous mako said...

... may be adventing at this time as an evolutionary aid towards the development of "latent capacities for imaginal perception."

Or perhaps it's a case of mass hypnosis?

Many years ago I had the occasion to speak with a physicist who worked on the Mahhattan Project. The elderly gentleman and his wife had taken up residence on a farm in a non-descript backwater village in rural Canada. They were in the business of producing a market crop which was ready for harvest so one day I stopped in to buy some. In the rural neighborhood not much is NOT known about your neighbors, but this couple seemed to have avoided scrutiny leaving them to be a mystery to everyone. The wife was very sociable and we struck up a conversation that lead to tea and muffins and many revelations, among which was the fact that since leaving the project her husband refused to socialise and NEVER spoke to anyone outside of the family.Their conversations were usually limited to perfunctory family matters.

I saw him from the porch, he was out in the field tending his crop so I asked his wife if it would be OK for me to go out there and talk to him. She said I could try but warned me again about his retisence towards everyone. When I reached him he gave no acknowledgement of my presence. Determined to get some word of wisdom for a young inquisitive guy from an elder whose accomplished life had lead him from the heights of human endeavour to this curious circumstance scratching at the dirt with a hoe, I addressed him politely and asked him a question.

"Is there anything you can tell me, a young man trying to make his way into the world that could help me? Some words of wisdom or guidance you can give me?"

I honestly stood there for twenty minutes, probably more. I was determined to impress him with my earnestness by remaining there for his answer, but resigned by his reluctance to speak I was about to turn back when he suddenly stopped what he was doing, looked up and directly into my eyes and said, "Nobody is in charge!" Then turned his back to me and continued to labour in his field. Though we were neighbors for several years, and had warm relations with his wife, he never spoke again.

Was he a kook? Judging by both of their accomplishments, his wife being an accomplished scientist in her own discipline, I guess not.

I try to see the fit in everyday life, what I witness and read on forums like this, with those words he gave me so many years ago. Stepping back and regarding the volume and totality of what's expressed here and by Jeff leads me to suspect the scizophrenics I have had the pleasure of speaking with in my life are right.

It's through the cracks that the light comes in. npnzn

4:37 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Here's a clue or two:

MDMA a.k.a. "ecstasy" = soma (but not the some of the vedas, rather Aldous Huxley's "dumbing down drug," the soma of Brave New World.

Check out in which country most of the illicit mdma is made, and who controls the trade.

It makes people feel warm and fuzzy even in contemplation of the NWO, and then leaves their brains just a bit less acute and emotionally responsive each time, permanently so, and on a cumulative basis.

Quite a bit different in it's short and long term effects than Hoffman's "problem child."

As for the "shamanizing" of who? Do you know what shamans do or what they are about? Power. Raw power, whether 'natural' or 'unnatural' or 'supernatural.'

It too is a fools game and a fruitless quest, likely to leave one unable to see the woods for the trees.

There are subtler ways of gaining knowledge, and more importantly, wisdom.

Each person's veils are there to be removed, "for he (or she) who has eyes to see, and ears to hear.

4:45 PM  
Anonymous Dugoboy said...

Band: A PERFECT CIRCLE

SOng LYRICS: "Annihilation"

From dehumanization to arms production,
For the benefit of the nation or its destruction
Power, power, the law of the land,
Those living for death will die by their own hand,

Life's no ordeal if you come to terms,
Reject the system dictating the norms

From dehumanization to arms production,
To hasten the nation towards its destruction
Power, power, the law of the land,
Those living for death will die by their own hand,

Life's no ordeal if you come to terms,
Reject the system dictating the norms

From dehumanization to arms production,
To hasten the nation towards its destruction
Power, power, the law of the land,
Those living for death will die by their own hand,

Life's no ordeal if you come to terms,
Reject the system dictating the norms

From dehumanization to arms production,
To hasten this nation towards its destruction,

It's your choice, your choice, your choice, your choice,
Peace or annihilation


our choice

4:51 PM  
Anonymous prunes said...

YES!

I couldn't be happier that you've come to Corbin, Jeff.

There is indeed something in us that is repressed, something wonderful.

Further reading: Religio Perennis

If I may be permitted a gross detour, the philosophically inclined might look into a comparison of Straussian politics with Traditionalist views. Roughly, as Marcuse, Guenon, etc. have shown the project of "modernity" or "progress" is futile and doomed. Strauss finds this, too, in that (again, roughly) without an absolute reference point of some kind, no knowledge can be grounded. He draws the most nihilistic conclusions from this, that all religion, philosophy, and culture is an empty farce, but this fact must be kept from the masses by the rulers. It is, in his view, necessary for the survival of the species that a secret clique of rulers manage the herd.

What the religio perennis posits is that there is an absolute reference point, one that is in reach of anyone, yet is outside the reach of any physical operation. It is intrinsically METAphysical. Modern people have a lot of trouble with this, but platonist-style philosophies deal with it quite easily. Surprisingly, these sorts of worldviews were still current up until just a couple hundred years ago. Tradition knows that any endeavor in the mundane world is, in the cosmic sense, futile, but working within ignites True Love.

This "inner" or Vertical dimension (as Frithjof Schuon described it) is exactly what must be supressed and denied for the continuance of the Beast System (as Mack White described it!)

4:53 PM  
Anonymous Col Quisp said...

veil = evil

are you saying that the beings on the other side of the veil are creating the chemtrails (grids in the sky) to dumb us down? It would make sense since mere humans don't have the resources to keep up the constant spraying!

5:02 PM  
Anonymous MaryK Croft said...

"these paranormal phenomena are appearing at an excelerated rate: maybe its not the phenomena that is appearing more, but rather as humankind has evolved we are all starting to innately pick up on things"

Yes. Orbs, UFO's, near-death experiences.. are being talked about more.

As are chemtrails. And vaccinations. And the lowering of standards for teaching our children. Today's high-school seniors don't know as much as eighth-graders a half-century ago.

It's all related: "they" try to dumb us down and sicken us and make us dependant on drugs and bad food and bad entertainment and gossip rather than stimulating intellectual discussion, uplifting creative endeavors, and being high on Life and constant learning.

6:11 PM  
Anonymous Steven Lagavulin said...

Last year I wrote up a somewhat tongue in cheek overview about the life and times of the controversial Troy Hurtubise ("Sometimes you eat the bear, sometimes the bear eats you..."), an uneducated laborer with a disconcerting gift for making groundbreaking discoveries. His most recent "invention" is the somewhat infamous Angel Light, which purportedly defies our known understanding of physics.

The piece ends with this paragraph:

"...let’s face it...something is intent on communicating to Troy Hurtubise via his dreams. For while it's tempting to believe that our subconscious holds vast untapped potentials and abilities, none of those would realistically include complete schematics for advanced technologies pertaining to fields which we have never even studied before. Troy Hurtubise is a remarkable individual, certainly...who knows, he may even be a “hee-ro”.... But when visionary dreams come to great people, it is generally the result of long work in their field of interest. And Troy Hurtubise’ field of interest is studying bears."

Just thought this might be pertinent, not trying to spam.

Steven Lagavulin

7:33 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

It’s been 50 years since Wasson, Huxley, and then Leary first fiddled with psilocybin, mescaline, lsd et alii, and more than 40 years since the widespread use of these substances by masses of people around the world began in the 1960’s. It is clear for anyone to see that none of this has led to any kind of enlightened society. Anywhere. Quite the contrary.

Shamanism, all indigenous forms of which employ plants or plant-derivatives (and occasionally animal venoms) with psychoactive / psychedelic properties, concerns the acquisition and wielding of personal power. Whether for insight into oneself and nature (ie. the experiencing of psychic death, investigating the nature of creation itself, finding where and when to go on hunt, et cetera, or even for healing), shamanic practice is ultimately about the acquisition and use of power, often in battle with other shamans.

Most often any problem is interpreted by the shaman as requiring power over his “enemies” or the “enemies” of the person or group seeking the shaman’s aid. Whether in matters of drought, famine, health, wealth, or marriage, there is always a designated enemy or enemies, a jealousy scenario, the “evil eye,” et cetera, ad nauseum. Even if it begins with a higher motivation, such practice most often devolves into this paradigm of a power struggle, and ultimately serves to rend the fabric of truth, rather than lift or remove any obscuring veils.

Shamans themselves and the practice of shamanism, whether using ayahuasca in the Amazon rainforest, San Pedro cactus in the Andes, various tantric nectars in the Himalayas, toad venom or peyotl in the Sonoran desert, amanita muscaria in the Siberian forest, ibogaine in Africa, you name it, is, sadly, almost never about anything other than the acquisition and use of personal power.

And it ultimately becomes about power, and little else. Sure, one might shoot some pigs or monkeys for food, or heal a disease or two along the way, but at what cost to one’s heart and soul? The wielding of such power finally becomes not merely the means, but the end, in and of itself. And we know how that corrupts.

Think of a banker whose thirst for riches is never quenched, even though fabulously wealthy. With presidents and kings at his beck and call, he may toss off a charitable contribution here and there. Not to mention what those charities may be up to, eg. WWF, Open Society, Ford Foundation, or Rockefeller Brothers Fund, and the like.

There is no salvation, no redemption, no wisdom, no intrinsic truth, in grasping for control, in self-aggrandizement, in attaining power or personal “godhood.” This is the spectrum of action, and goal, of the illuminati. It is a fool’s errand, and the way to perdition.

Here is an excerpt from one of the sites you linked in your posting today:
Local Teen Claims to be God
James told the cops that he didn't care what they did to him because he was God and he created everything. And he kept yelling that he had figured 'IT' out and that he was the smartest man alive. The cops thought that it was kind of funny.
_______________
How much like Mansur al-Hallaj, an “intoxicated” sufi who, in the year 922, famously exclaimed “An’ al-Haqq.” [translation: “I am the Truth.”]

Al-Haqq is one of the divine names in the Qur’an. Hallaj was declaring himself to be God.

Now whether or not he attained to this yoga, only God knows. What history reflects is that Hallaj was crucified for his proclamation by his fellow muslims shortly thereafter.

Hallaj was reputed to have forgiven his executors because, he claimed, “If they knew what I knew they would not do this.” I guess that depends on what he thought that he knew.

As one might remember from the Tao-te-ching:

”Those who speak, don’t know.
Those who know, don’t speak.”

So.... I’ll just shut up now and be on my way.

7:41 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

About commonalities between DNA structure and dreams of south- American shamans the work of Jeremy Narby is definitely worth checking.

7:52 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Jeff, please, let's speculate.
"...marvel at the calculation behind our conspicuous dumbing down. What is it about us that is being supressed, and who most profits by it?"

You research and present great findings and interpretations and I look forward, each day, to your writings but let's have a purely speculative jaunt? Answer the questions you pose, please?

Great article, btw.

I have peeled away the layers of my onion a few times with some psylocibin of my own. As a result of my psylocibic experiences, I have been, on and off for about three years, preparing myself for DMT. Reading todays offering makes me wonder if I am ready yet...

8:04 PM  
Blogger Jeff said...

Steven, I think it's very interesting you mention Troy Hurtubise in this context. His "fire paste" is another of his "physics-defying" inventions he can't really account for. Reminds me in many respects of Vancouver's John Hutchison, who can't explain his results either.

8:05 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Veil or mist is a better description then portal. Ritual magicians have always been trying to create portals, magic circles, while average people walk in and out of veils,let their subconcious mind travel through tunnels night and day, and find very few problems.

Portals are an attempt, or hope, to get things under controled circumstances where they can be studied and used to impress patrons. Even if they have some success I would not worry.

Other fields of study have , historically , been much more dangerous to human survival and sanity.

8:44 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ko·yaa·nis·qatsi (from the Hopi language): n. 1. crazy life. 2. life in turmoil. 3. life disintegrating. 4. life out of balance. 5. a state of life that calls for another way of living.
Translations of the Hopi Prophecies sung in the film:

If we dig precious things from the land, we will invite disaster.
Near the Day of Purification, there will be cobwebs spun back and forth in the sky.

A container of ashes might one day be thrown from the sky, which could burn the land and boil the oceans.

8:57 PM  
Anonymous jules said...

"I'm not sure I agree with Ring's rosy conclusions drawn from the evident thinning of the veil. I wonder instead whether a nexus of powerful parties on both sides of the portal with investments in control are conspiring to exploit gateways, the result of which may mean a near blunt-force stunting of the development of human consciousness."

If this is your feeling, Jeff, what are you gonna do about it?

Perhaps you yourself may learn how to close the portals you refer to. This stuff is a mystery and the power of life supports it.

There is a lot of talk in the discussion here about the dangers of DMT of shamanism and the rest.

One thing I know about this stuff is that in some indigenous groups, power goes when the land fails to support the people.

There is a relationship between the land and the people that is of paramount importance, not just for the people but for the continuation of life itself. This life is what supports the peoples, by providing food and other necessites. (Like a Home).

In some cultures there are different perspectives on the ego, sometimes people cannot refer to themselves as a stand alone "I", but instead base their worldview on their relationship to the others in their tribe.

Ultimately everyone has selfish tendencies, however we also have the ability to cultivate altruistic tendencies, ones that concern us with the well being of others.

Personally, my feeling is that the cultivation of selflessness in a human can prevent the worst excesses of power, if the person has some tradition of applying self control and self discipline.

Obviously this does not apply to anyone trying to open portals to "other realms" for their own benefit. Or perhaps it does?

My understanding of what people refer to as shamanism is that it devotes more time to closing the portals or gateways you refer to and keeping them shut, than to opening them.

However power is an aspect of shamanism, and it makes complete sense to me that "the powers that be" would be interested in the "secrets" of shamanism to further their agenda of control.

But to me that is the antithesis of what shamanism or what we refer to as shamanism, is about. All the "real" shamans I have met, (not many mind you, just a few) base their life in a deep compassion, and concern for their community, and its individual members.

9:28 PM  
Anonymous slomo said...

I think you have to remember that there is a difference between a shaman and a sorcerer. They are not the same thing. Both a physician and an assassin have "powers".

9:42 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yo Slomo:

I think that perhaps you are offering an "academic" view.

Some adepts claim to utilize so-called left hand or right hand methods, to be either 'black' or 'white' practitioners. These are just labels. They do not penetrate to the heart of the matter.

Sorcerer vs. shaman is a distinction without a difference.

As for the compassion that some shamans may emanate, this is no doubt the case. Some are lovely people to know and work with.

Nevertheless, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Caveat wesand, especially the "useless" ones (a la Henry the K.)

[pardon the linguistic hybrid]

10:11 PM  
Anonymous slomo said...

I mean this in the kindest possible way, but perhaps it is you who are being a bit academic:

Sorcerer vs. shaman is a distinction without a difference.

True, there are a million shades of grey (or a rainbow of color) in between black and white. But do you really believe that you, or anyone else who reads or posts here, lives entirely in the white to off-white part of the spectrum? Everything we do participates in some form of so-called evil. None of us are blameless.

In practice, one can orient oneself towards compassion or towards domination. No, there is no clear-cut Rubicon over which crossing entails damnation. But it's a bit like art vs. pornography. You know it when you see it, or feel it in this case.

We all have the capacity to live through and beyond the veils. It is this power, which belongs to all of us, that your "elite" would steal from us, if they could.

10:24 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dear Slomo,

I agree with everything you just said, escept the touche' of academic. That, I am not. 99.44% experience talking in this matter.

No, of course I do not imagine myself a 'pure' one or blameless. Quite the opposite.

The point I was trying to convey was that no matter the purity of heart or intention of someone embarking on the shamanic path, based on my observations at close hand over the past four decades in this area, no matter the geography or the pharmacology (though some are riskier than others), even the BEST intended spiritual healer is wading into a shit swamp with metaphorical open wounds on his feet. Eventually, nary a one remains uninfected in some way. And, it is the rarest of the rare who survive with their hearts and souls relatively unsullied.

10:52 PM  
Anonymous slomo said...

Well, no real harm intended with the academic touche. But what do you mean by the following quote?

Eventually, nary a one remains uninfected in some way. And, it is the rarest of the rare who survive with their hearts and souls relatively unsullied.

Are you saying that ultimately everybody slides down the slippery slope to manipulation and domination? Or are you saying that it is impossible to live in this world without being touched by deep sorrow?

I disagree with the former, and the latter speaks for itself. Jesus Christ Himself left this world (or whatever mythic world He left) in a state of deep sorrow. If you're at all paying attention, you cannot help but feel the deep sorrow that permeates this plane of existence: sorrow for every being -- human, animal, vegetable, or even mineral -- that has to suffer here.

That is the true crime of Jeff's occult elite, if they exist (and I'm agnostic on that subject, although I lean in Jeff's direction). They would desensitize us to the point of not seeing the suffering at all, and so allow it to continue unabated.

11:11 PM  
Anonymous slomo said...

I would also add to my previous comment that, because the fundamental nature here is of suffering, it would make sense that the lower astral plane is dominated by unpleasant entities. Beings that are attracted to this realm are the least sensitive to the suffering of others. Beings that are sensitive to suffering decide to go elsewhere.

And what about you and me? We're here, aren't we? What does that tell you about our place in the cosmos? Think about that the next time you bite into a ham sandwich.

11:29 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Slomo:

Thanks for your thoughtful reply.

You wrote:

"Are you saying that ultimately everybody slides down the slippery slope to manipulation and domination? Or are you saying that it is impossible to live in this world without being touched by deep sorrow?"

To your first question, no. I am saying that virtually anyone who engages in the practice of actual shamanism is always on the slippery slope and sliding down at one rate or another, despite their best intentions and efforts to the contrary.

I did not make the second statement you questioned either, but I would certainly agree with it. It seems pretty undeniable. I think that was the first "noble truth" of buddhism. Be that as it may.

11:35 PM  
Anonymous slomo said...

To your first question, no. I am saying that virtually anyone who engages in the practice of actual shamanism is always on the slippery slope and sliding down at one rate or another, despite their best intentions and efforts to the contrary.

I'll have to think about this carefully. My initial reaction is that we are all always sliding down that slope: the acquisition of power hastens the slide. The only way to halt it is to give up the power willingly in a true act of self-sacrifice. How many of us will do that?

But I think there is more to your comment, as obviously you speak from deep experience.

11:53 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I just finished reading Graham Hancock's new book Supernatural and he tackles several of the topics discussed here.

He experimented with Ibogaine, Ayuhuasca, DMT - although not the injected form that Strassman's subjects used, no one in the private sector can get a hold of that - and several dried grams of various "magic" mushrooms during his research.

He never takes the cynical - these spirits or beings on the other side are evil - even though he did see a somewhat menacing "grey" during one of his Ayahuasca visions who gave him the fear of possibly being abducted.

What has also been unsaid here is that in Strassman's DMT research his volunteers spoke of meeting beings who were congratulating them on discovering the technology to visit them, knew when they were coming, tried their best to communicate, and felt honest sadness when they left.

One woman subject felt it unfair that the good doctor controlled who gets to experiment with this high grade DMT. Which in the end is the problem. Who gets to go on the true voyage, to learn and evolve. And who gets the crappy drugs that are a false substitute killing the mind and soul.

12:02 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

To the last anonymous at 12:02

From the one before that, who was dialoguing with Slomo:

There is no drug on God's green and blue earth that will give you "the true voyage." Some may provide hints, but that journey is way longer and more arduous than any pharmaceutical odyssey alone.

You can learn and evolve each instant of every moment, waking and sleeping, or what have you.

Nothing can prevent this from happening despite your honest desire and effort for insight

But a well-motivated intention and sustained effort alone are not enough. We do not control the universe, or determine the fruit of our action.

12:30 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Same commentor, continuing:

So if we don't determine the outcome, who or what does?

Christians call it grace.

Muslims call it baraka.

Fools call it luck,

or their due.

12:42 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Jeff
Great post. The book that flashed into my mind when I read this was Charles Upton's System of the Antichrist(No its not a fundamentalist Christian downer)but an investigation of the current days from the traditionalist (Guenon,Coomaraswamy,Schuon) perspective. Upton is a professed convert from New Age spirituality to traditional Sufism. Upton basically provides a critique of various systems of New Age thought and UFO abductions. Although he doesn't touch on psychadelics to paraphrase a reviewer in Amazon Upton posits that these aliens, channeled beings are perhaps the jinn of Islamic folklore or the demons of Christian tradition. Upton notes that not all of these entities may be evil or necessarily harmful; however, since without a traditional understanding it is impossible to determine this, they should be avoided.

Great book that needs to be read many times to really understand his
full view.

2:47 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Jeff
Great post. The book that flashed into my mind when I read this was Charles Upton's System of the Antichrist(No its not a fundamentalist Christian downer)but an investigation of the current days from the traditionalist (Guenon,Coomaraswamy,Schuon) perspective. Upton is a professed convert from New Age spirituality to traditional Sufism. Upton basically provides a critique of various systems of New Age thought and UFO abductions. Although he doesn't touch on psychadelics to paraphrase a reviewer in Amazon Upton posits that these aliens, channeled beings are perhaps the jinn of Islamic folklore or the demons of Christian tradition. Upton notes that not all of these entities may be evil or necessarily harmful; however, since without a traditional understanding it is impossible to determine this, they should be avoided.

Great book that needs to be read many times to really understand his
full view.

2:48 AM  
Anonymous jules said...

Life is a fight, according to some.

Perhaps that is true and part of the evolution of consciousness, is to learn to minimise the violence.

DMT is supposedly produced by the pineal gland. Perhaps during death, perhaps sleep.

Sometimes during waking consciousness.

A big part of human history is fighting and violence, by young men to protect the tribe from other young men, and then when they don't expect it, attacking them.

So before a young man became an adult they were initiated, through an ordeal. In the process they were often exposed to what seemed like the ancestors, the world of the dead.

To prepare them for the problems they will face ie pain and death.

I dunno how this all fits but it is interesting.

6:33 AM  
Anonymous fuj said...

Best post & comments I've ever read on RI! Good stuff. I'm surprised starroute isn't all over this thread...

Someone else already stated that these beings behind the veil may just be the product of our imagination. Many people (including Jeff, it seems) struggle with this idea because the beings are so often experienced as existing outside of us. Well, so is day-to-day external reality, but quantum physics has shown without a doubt that there is no 'out there' out there!

It appears from the above readings that these beings behind the veil are sometimes naughty, sometimes nice. And I assume there aren't different locales with distinctly tempered phaeries floating about, so the way these beings appear to one must be dependant on one's subjective state.

If the astral plane is truly an imaginal world, then we should expect negative thoughts and feelings to manifest as demons/insects/scary+nasty stuff IF we don't identify with them. But if we are open and accepting, we can embrace our dark side as well as the light.

The greatest fear is not fear itself, but the Self itself! Own your darkness, and remember that you're looking in the mirror next time you see some weird shit...

7:33 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Don't forget Kary Mullis, developer of the polymerase chain reaction, whose LSD usage assisted him in the discovery. He's also had a few strange "rigorous intuition" experiences that have caused the scientific comunity to question his sanity.

9:14 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Migraine sufferers often describe visions and experiences similar to those described by people who take DMT. Google "migraine art."

Unfortunately, I neglected to copy the URL to this recent article:


Nobel Prize genius Crick took LSD when he discovered the secret spiral of life

Francis Crick, the Nobel Prize-winning father of modern genetics, was under the influence of LSD when he first visualised the double-helix structure of DNA nearly 50 years ago.

The abrasive and unorthodox Crick and co-researcher James Watson famously celebrated their eureka moment in 1953 by running from the now legendary Cavendish Laboratory in Cambridge to the nearby Eagle Pub, where they announced over pints of bitter that they had discovered the secret of life.

Crick, who died recently aged 88, later told a friend that he often used small doses of LSD [then an experimental drug used in psychotherapy] to boost his powers of thought. He said it was LSD, not the Eagle's warm beer, that helped him to unravel the structure of DNA, the discovery that won him the Nobel Prize.

Despite his Establishment image, Crick was a devotee of novelist Aldous Huxley, whose accounts of his experiments with LSD and another hallucinogen, mescaline, in the short stories The Doors Of Perception and Heaven And Hell became cult texts for the hippies of the Sixties and Seventies. In the late Sixties, Crick was a founder member of Soma, a legalise-cannabis group named after the drug in Huxley's novel Brave New World. He even put his name to a famous letter to The Times in 1967 calling for a reform in the drug laws.

9:45 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think it's reasonable to conclude that the other realm is populated, just as ours is, with many kinds of beings, some of which are neutral toward us, some with benign intentions, and some that are michievous or worse. I have seen/felt all three kinds in my own wanderings.

With so many freelancers out there exploring the realm on their own, it's a safe bet that somewhere, intelligence agencies, secret labs, what have you -- are doing the same. This has always been the case in human history, though, in all cultures, at all times. It is our predicament. It hasn't changed -- except that, if anything, it's less prevalent now, pushed to the fringes, emphatically illegalized. Shamanism used to be the default religion, for thousands of years, during which the average person was able to partake directly with the ineffable. By now few have even heard of it, and the priests have stripped the sacrament out of religion, replacing it with placebos and accumulating the Power and the Truth to themselves and what they say it is, rather than enabling individuals to experience it for themselves.

So, do we leave the pursuit of what is revealed by these sacraments to those already in power? Or do we continue to see for ourselves? It's unsatisfying to me to say, well, shamanism is about power and has never led to enlightenment or benefit. That's not true. It's only a partial view of the story. The whole story is that of a complex, titanic, pan-cultural endeavor that reaches back into the mists of prehistory, probably back to when we were apes. There is a reason for this, there is a reason the plants are here and that we've always used them. To my mind, the main thing is that for a shrt time, they plug the human brain into what James Joyce called "the mama matrix most mysterious." They keep us connected intellectually to the earth and her elementals, whatever they may be. There must be, in that connection, almost by definition, a survival benefit.

9:58 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Reality" is what we perceive with our senses, and how we process that info.

Clearly, altering the perceiving system ie, the brain and senses, will alter "reality" as perceived.

Whatever is seen, smelled, felt, heard, understood, imagined, is will be quite different using drugs, specifically hallucinogenic drugs and the like.

Does that make it "real" or is it like an having an opinion on something?

11:32 AM  
Anonymous starroute said...

Something's happening here but you don't know what it is, do you, Mr. Jones?

Trouble is, these days we're all Mr. Jones . . .

I was busy yesterday and missed a lot of the fun here, but I can see the discussion has been cycling around two main questions:

1) Are things any different now than they ever were?

2) If they are, is this a Good Thing or a Bad Thing?

On #1, I do believe that something significant is happening, although the change may be more historical in nature than metaphysical. Speaking in broad terms, I see three major eras of human history:

Prehistoric times were ruled by Tradition -- with people convinced they were doing things the way they had always been done, ever since the Dreamtime, and with change being rare and painful (and generally driven by the visions and bullying of those power-trippy shamans.)

Early civilizations were ruled by Authority -- with the shamans turned into divine rulers whose word was law and who had the ability to redirect entire societies at will, setting them to building pyramids or conquering the neighbors. At best, this led to major creative innovations and the establishment of stable states. At worst, it created a culture of oppression, torture, slavery, and endless warfare.

For the last 500 years or so, we've been groping our way towards a new system based on individual intuition within a context of heightened social feedback to keep things from falling into anarchy. Democracy, science, and capitalism are all varying expressions of that attempt.

The completion of this change is inevitable. In an evolutionary universe, whatever promotes more rapid and adaptive evolution is bound to win out in the end. But it's very hard to leave the past behind. The monsters of elite dominance who want to hold onto the old system of Authority, and the frightened fundamentalists who want to scoot even further back into the hole of Tradition, are both fighting tooth and nail to hold on.

However, the former systems cannot prevail -- if only because the current population levels and density of communication networks make them obsolete luxuries. You can no longer go off into the wilderness like a shaman/visionary/hermit. You can't even hope to outrun the king's law like a medieval bandit. We're all stuck here, living in each other's hip pockets, plugged into the network, and we don't need either tradition or authority to keep us from slipping out.

So the real question is what we make of it. For example, how do you maintain freedom of action in a world where everybody knows everybody else's business?

Or, on a far subtler level, what are the effects of a situation where we interact less and less with the material reality immediately surrounding us and more and more with the noosphere of other people's thoughts and feelings?

There are going to be serious problems to cope with as the world shifts around us. But we need to focus on making the most of those new problems and opportunities -- not on either resisting their coming or on fearing that they will be thwarted by would-be pharaohs or cave-dwellers.

11:50 AM  
Blogger sfmike said...

Thanks, starroute. As usual, you've confirmed a lot of what I've been suspecting about this moment in time being The Last Hurrah for "the monsters of elite dominance who want to hold onto the old system of Authority, and the frightened fundamentalists who want to scoot even further back into the hole of Tradition."

It certainly is an interesting time to be alive, especially since I've felt as if I was part of this shift since the day I was born. Thanks again.

12:54 PM  
Anonymous prunes said...

the frightened fundamentalists who want to scoot even further back into the hole of Tradition.

Just a note, a distinction should be made between the "tradition" of fundamentalists and the school of thought known as "Traditionalism" as exemplified by Upton, Schuon, Guenon, etc. mentioned upthread.

Traditionalism is nearly the polar opposite of fundamentalism. To a fundamentalist, the scriptures and sacred symbols are interpreted according to the literal letter (think Tim LaHaye), to a Traditionalist, they are better thought of as expressing metaphysical realities, the point of which is to lead us to know the divine, which is already present within us.

A fundamentalist would almost certainly think of most Traditionalists as heretical, and vice-versa.

1:24 PM  
Blogger foist lastus said...

Scabs on the edge of reality.

I've had a few experiences 'on the edge' and haven't seen any similar references webside yet. I have, at times, sensations that are similar to what you might feel if the wind blew the seeds of a dandelion on to your arm. Only there isn't any thing on the physical plane to be seen. A sensation of something like a mild static charge which 'alights' on a random part of the body and attaches, some times creating a mild 'soft' feeling and sometimes more like the bite of an ant or sweat fly. In everycase, if I address physically the area where the sensation is being felt, I can grab and remove the 'charge' physically feeling it with a hand. Sometimes these 'charges' are so 'big' that several 'handfulls' of 'this entity' have to be addressed. These 'charges' are kind of like annoying flies. I note them alighting both on chakra points and also other parts of the body, frequently eye sockets, hands,feet and ankles and that hard to reach point in the middle of my back.
Yeh, it sounds wierd, but has become so regular an occurence that I now find my self grabbing and throwing these 'things' off of myself even when I am riding a bycycle.

3:13 PM  
Blogger 23skidoo said...

I recently stumbled across a post in which one O.T.O. lodge leader was arguing that Kenneth Grant is deluded in his descriptions of chaos magick and his view of the "left hand path." My exposure to the O.T.O. is very limited, but that the commentator mentioned the necessity of "passing over the abyss," the chaotic realm of the "false crown," is necessary for full enlightened development. The abyss is home of Choronzon, and crossing the abyss requires destruction of the ego. The writer went on to describe that in his mind, Grant was caught in the abyss, with an inability to get past ego (even as Grant himself spoke of the destruction of the ego as part of the left-hand practice).

That element of destruction of ego struck me as similar to the goal of Buddhism, achieving one-ness with all elements of the universe and seeing the "Buddha nature" in all that exists. Likewise, the soulless and self-serving Qlippoth seem to be "vampires" feeding on those who think too much in terms of ego, seeking to use the Qlippoth to forward the magician's own ends. The post's "demonic" entities also reminded me of the description of the Qlippoth.

Whatever the nature of the current point in our spacetime, there are recurring elements of ego and that we have somehow "false" or delusional views of ourselves and what we are or how we exist, that some paranormal events represent penetration of our physical and/or mental realm by beings that are apart from us or in some way connected to us or a part of us, perhaps as manifestations of the unconscious. The Qlippoth and "false crown" relating to self-consciousness relate, but how?

I also like the idea by the poster above of "nobody being in charge." There is a poetic ambiguity in it. Hope this aimless rumination is somewhat interesting to you.

4:13 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The problem with considering Tim Lahaye a literalist is because his theories and interpretations are NOT based on actual biblical scripture; they are based on lies and wishful thinking.

The 'Left Behind' and dispensationalist factions of fundamentalist 'Christianity' derive their self worth from a premise that does not actually exist in the bible - that the 'elect,' or most faithful Christians will be magically saved from the tribulation.

In fact, the book of Revelation states that only 144,000 people - 12,000 from each tribe OF ISRAEL will be saved in this manner. Christians are not mentioned at all in the good book.

4:45 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I was in Rick Strassman's DMT studies. Strassman ended the studies because he was too cowardly to deal with both the professional ridicule for studying DMT and because he just didn't know what to do with all the information he was gathering and with some of the "travelers". All of us in the study felt betrayed by his abrupt departure and even more angered by his weenie excuses in his book...which has some glaring inaccuracies in it. What isn't as widely known is that Strassman also began studying the effects of psilocybin using a synthesized version made in Switzerland. I also participated in that study.

DMT is a vehicle for inter-dimensional travel. All the speculation here is just that...speculation. Unless you have actually experienced .04 mg per kgm of IV DMT, you don't know what you're talking about.

6:47 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dominance Occurs When One Side Gives Up

The fact is that in a world where there are many against a few, they can only win with our consent. This has been demonstrated over and over. Look at the Iraqis. They don't sit down and put their guns down muttering, "Well, after all, we are up against a super power." They keep fighting. Why? Because of two of the things that have been alluded to in the many comments posted.

Yes, people are hungaring for a spiritual truth that doesn't come dressed up in a series of arcane rituals, financial planning and a building. They want the kind of truth that brings with it both peace and a moral/ethical compass that leaves the possesor no doubt as to what the "right" direction for any decision should be.

Frankly, I think that we have all lost a significant source of direction in our faith in our country. When you get down to it, a country is no better or worse than its people. If the people fail to act or permit a monster to take over, they tend to see themselves and their country as artifacts of a colossal failure. This does not have to be.

Everyone, including great leaders, great men and women who have given much to our society, each and every one of them was not always correct in their decisions. The difference between greatness and obscurity was and will always be: How one handles failure. Those who become bitter after failures and cease trying to get to the right path...are destined for the obscurity of infamy or worse. Those who keep faith with their own goodness, their own sense of right, who press on despite impediments and errors, those are the great and the true people that many of us aspire to be.

We are at one of these sort of crossroads today. We need to decide what the moral high ground is and follow it by ourselves unfailingly and in doing so, we will become our own shamans.

7:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

If knowledge is power than the shamans do empower themselves.

8:39 PM  
Blogger owlindaylight said...

One can spend one's entire life and more cataloguing the denizens of the infernal astral realms, documenting their various agendas and power struggles -- amongst themselves, and against us. There is no shortage of Lovecraftian entities attempting to play control games with humanity, to be sure. And they may even have the upper hand at this time in history.

I speak not from erudition but from experience. And my experience has also shown this universe to be full of angelic beings, loving & helpful beings, and a wide cross-section of indifferent ones, too.

But the lower realms often become points of obsession for neophyte occultists, being so full of apparent treachery, and seemingly confirming one's worst notions about the universe.

The first thing that goes, for the newbie magicians and paranormal investigators, is a sense of humor about such things. This is the gateway to paranoia, the great destroyer of the occultically-inclined.

I've been watching this happen with RI, the long descent into near-hopelessness, and I hope that you, Jeff, and your readers, can find some amusement for the sake of your own mental well-being. While it's good to have one's eyes open, and I value what has been exposed in this forum, it's also good to have one's heart open to all the love and all the comedy that exists in our universe. When we are fearful, suspicious, and paranoid, we are truly in the grip of these beings about which you write.

I see it all the time. I see how people's thoughts attract entities to them of various kinds, depending on the character of the thoughts. Call it harmonic resonance. Change your thoughts, and you change the etheric space around you.

The best way to do that is to stop taking this shit so fucking seriously! Stop being so narrowly focused on the negative.

You've read Corbin, and I'll bet you've investigated Swedenborg as well ... what do these authorities say about the other worlds? Do they not approach them with wonderment, do they not express the delight to be found in these subtle mirror-realms of our own? Sure, they mention the demons, but only in passing, passing through to the angelic realms. These infernal denizens are but counterweights to the angels' influence.

Something I try to keep in mind: If you can laugh at someone, or some entity, or some situation, what power does it have over you?

10:18 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Another aspect about shamanism that many posting hear seem to forget is that many times the shaman is put into the position he is in because of abilities prior to any discipline, training or "empowerment." The other aspect that is not addressed and must not be forgotten is that in any act of shamanism is the doctrine of "PERMISSION" which must be requested and granted to engage in other wordly business and that includes any curative or positive intent upon any shaman's patient. There is much more to this than just embarking into or on any journey. There IS definitely a difference between "brujos" and "curanderos," the biggest of course being intent. Truthfully what I have experienced and much of their practices and doctrine are way less harmless, invasive and instrusive than our own Western version of MEDICINE. Please do not throw the baby out with the bathwater just because it is not so mainstream and people have a tendency to fear what they are not familiar with and don't really know. Yes, there is much evil, but we humans chose to eat of that fruit and know the evil way back in the garden. It was not a sin it was a choice.

Tov

10:22 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"DMT is a vehicle for inter-dimensional travel. All the speculation here is just that...speculation. Unless you have actually experienced .04 mg per kgm of IV DMT, you don't know what you're talking about.”

I agree! I would like to try this DMT and experience it for myself. Where can I find it? I am not interested in a “trip” but in the journey to discover this inter-dimensional travel.

If you can seriously recommend where I can find DMT and experience this, please e-mail me: mcux24@yahoo.com.

10:45 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Actually, it was a sin.
And a choice.
Just look at the consequences.
Free will: it is a bitch.
[idiomatically speaking]
No sexism intended.

10:52 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dear mcux24:

DMT is a Schedule I controlled substance and highly illegal and prosecutable.

But then, being FBI or DEA or whatever you are, you knew that.

D'uh.

10:59 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"DMT is a Schedule I controlled substance and highly illegal and prosecutable."

I am not DEA or FBI. I was serious when I asked this, and am aware of its illegality. So is pot, cocaine, etc.

However, I have read that DMT is readily available in many indiginous plants here, and that was what I was referring to in my question. Perhaps I should have been more specific...

Moreover, there are some religious groups (i.e. the Brazilian based O Centro Espirita Beneficiente Uniao do Vegetal Church) which have used their DMT containing "Hoasca" Tea in certain ceremonies here in the U.S.

Apparently, our Supreme Court will be making a ruling as to the legality of the use of this DMT based "Entheogen" sometime in 2006.

10:15 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I am not DEA or FBI. I was serious when I asked this, and am aware of its illegality. So is pot, cocaine, etc.

However, I have read that DMT is readily available in many indiginous plants here, and that was what I was referring to in my question. Perhaps I should have been more specific...


Perhaps you should try Google, you twit

10:43 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Perhaps you should try Google, you twit."

The why bother joining in on this discussion? "Twit"?! Go stick your head back in the sand....it's safe there. You belong there.

11:12 AM  
Blogger RDR said...

"DMT is a vehicle for inter-dimensional travel. All the speculation here is just that...speculation. Unless you have actually experienced .04 mg per kgm of IV DMT, you don't know what you're talking about.”

Prsonally, I think that even if you have experienced .04mg per Kg of DMT, you still don't know what you're talking about. The term "interdimensional travel" is no more than a buzz-phrase approximation of an ineffable experience. There's no objective determination for what a given "dimension" is, in what reliable sense it differs from a different "dimension", or what happens in the transition between any two, or more. Are we talking about dimensions in the Euclidean sense, here? Euclidean geometry is defined by an objective set of testable postulates. Where are the postulates and corrolaries attendant to the experience of dimensions beyond 1, 2, 3, and 4-D?

I've experienced relatively high-dose DMT, incidentally. I didn't find it productive. For me, it was a glimpse of the Unknowable, and the Unknowable is a debilitating place to put one's attention.

The fact that DMT is an endogenous neurochemical indicates nothing about the inherent safety of ingesting large doses of it. Insulin is an endogenous chemical, too. Fortunately, DMT doesn't appear to be that toxic- although I think that if it were widely and frequently used, susceptible populations would run a high risk of coronary events and strokes. As it happens, few people over the age of 40 experiment with it. Good thing. Also fortunately, it clears the body quite quickly, and the experience is over within 15-45 minutes. There literally isn't enough time for it to be psychologically traumatizing, unlike many drug experiences of longer duration. Ontologically traumatizing, yes...your entire ground of being will become kaleidoscopic origami. As a result, terror is a typical reaction, even among the enthusaists of the experience, for whom the terror is a transient predecessor of the ecstatic component they seek.

There's really no "prepping" for the DMT experience, either. The onset is too fast, and it's too intense. If one is determined to experiment with it, I recommend a safe, quiet environment, perhaps with a friend or two nearby.

I think that ingesting DMT is too much of a single-variable modification in the complex circuit of the human nervous system to do much beyond showing the user "the neurochemical that makes the grass green", so to speak. I've compared it to being kidnapped, blindfolded, and tossed out of a plane to skydive, all in the space of about 15 seconds. You know, as a birthday surprise: "Like it?"

Well, some people go in for that sort of thing. And I wish them well. But I think if there's such a thing as "interdimensional travel", resort to material substances like chemicals shouldn't be necessary for it to take place. The precepts of quantum physics indicate that, if available, access to other dimensions should be available to consciousness without gross modifications of its vectors. Additionally, I question the value of the experience of other dimensions, beyond entertainment. Suppose, for instance, you've had the experience of 2-dimensionality...what difference does it when you return from the journey?

The Jivaro men of Amazonia are known to use DMT, snorted as the snuff known as yopo, as a method of altering their consciousness. But from the accounts I've read, they place relatively little value on the experience, beyond it being a particularly terrifying roller-coaster ride. From what I've read, it sounds like one of those ordeal experiences that's looked upon as a test of masculinity, which indicates to me that a few males in the tribe cajole or bully the rest of the men into doing it, in the name of "tradition" or something...the way the Jivaros use DMT is that while using it they all straddle a log and hold on to each other, literally like toboganning! And from the accounts given in Michael Harner's book on the Jivaro, the typical reaction during the experience is one of utter terror...

11:32 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

To RDR:

While not completely comprehensive, and missing many cultural and chemical subplots, your last dmt posting is certainly the most succinctly intelligent thumbnail written on this particular substance I have ever read. Well said.

TMcK said the only way one can die on DMT is if it were possible to be "astonished to death." Clearly not for the faint of heart, literally and figuratively, to say the least. I knew Terrence for many years and frankly, I don't think he ever learned a damn thing worth knowing from it. When I asked him once in Mexico whether he really believed in his Time Wave theory and software that he peddled for years, he smiled and shrugged and whined with his winking smile, "It pays the bills."

The wisest thing I think you said is that there is no point in spending time contemplating the unknowable.

How true.

Perhaps this is why sufis, who contemplate, remember, and seek to embody the 99 beautiful names / attributes of the divine, they hold that it is pointless / impermissable to contemplate God's essence.

As they say in Arabic, "Kif kif."
[literally, "same same."]

They do this not because they are rigid authoritarians, but rather because they are wise and loving and trying to help guide fakirs and dervishes and faithful men and women toward a life of beauty and peace.

1:46 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The precepts of quantum physics indicate that, if available, access to other dimensions should be available to consciousness without gross modifications of its vectors.

They indicate no such thing - this is pseudo-intellectual babble. Drugs or other mind alterants may or may not be essential for travel to other realms, but the "precepts of quantum physics" have little to say about it one way or the other. In fact, since quantum theory is being forced more and more to account for the state of the observer, a theoretical underpinning for the importance of drug use is certainly possible. Plus, you know, eons of informal experimentation.

The why bother joining in on this discussion? "Twit"?! Go stick your head back in the sand....it's safe there. You belong there.

Ooh, ouchimunga.

2:28 PM  
Anonymous prunes said...

since quantum theory is being forced more and more to account for the state of the observer

Quantum mysteries disentangled

2:31 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

BTW, on the "astonished to death" thing, in Strassman's studies where fear/terror was more often than not a major attribute of the subjects' responses, there was at least one healthy young male whose blood pressure reached "astonishingly" high and potentially fatal levels (as in causing a stroke or heart attack). This required immediate intervention and treatment with sub-lingual beta-blockers to drop the subject's blood pressure back to a more life-sustaining level.

Another caveat for the intrepid "voyager".

And another btw: Where exactly do you think you would go? Do you know how to navigate "inter-dimensionally." How many wormholes have you successfully naviagated in the past? How well have you memorized the interstellar maps? Do you think you would recognize "here" from "out there."

But of course not.

Do you even know what the dharmadhatu is? Do you know the architecture of the subtle realms viz. Islam or Christianity or Buddhism?

Ever lived in a hammock in the Amazon with no mosquito net for a few weeks. I recommend you try it. Some of us have.

Try meditating or praying for a few lifetimes first. You would be far better off.

Peace and love, brothers and sisters.

2:35 PM  
Anonymous Dugoboy said...

Jeff go here,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synaesthesia

'Synaesthesia is a common effect of some hallucinogenic drugs such as LSD or mescaline.'

2:45 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

FLASH HEADLINE NEWS:

ALIEN MOSQUITOS DEVOURED BY PREYING MANTIDS FROM ANOTHER GALAXY

Film at 11.

Get the popcorn. Maybe we can attain "true enlightenment".

2:52 PM  
Anonymous edward said...

Dugoboy said...
Band: A PERFECT CIRCLE

SOng LYRICS: "Annihilation"


That track was originally created by the punk band Crucifix in 1982, in case you didn't know. That's just the intro. The rest of the lyrics are as follows:

Crucifix
Annihilaton

Annihilation is to one the means to an end
armageddon the war to end all wars, the extemists' end
annihilaton annihilation
annihilation self destruction
the streets are on fire, death in our wake
cas overturned, bodies are raped
you go on
preaching religious dogma,while paying for and sanctioning vicious murders
annihilation annihilation annihilation praise
destruction
you go on playing with people's lives
using their minds, you want total control
stay in line
anihilation
annihilation th judgement day
armageddon armagedon are you going to let them blow you away?


Crucifix were a hardcore punk band in the 1980s from Berkeley, California. They were among the most popular acts in the prolific San Francisco Hardcore scene of the early 80's.

Crucifix was founded in 1980 and fronted by Cambodian-born singer Sothira Pheng, whose family had fled the country when the brutal Khmer Rouge seized power. The band's self titled EP debuted on Universal Records of Berkeley in '81 and was followed by the "1984" single distributed on Freak Records in '82. The band's second full length "Dehumanization" on Corpus Christi Records (an offshoot of Crass Records) which showcased their extremely fast and overdriven sound, reminiscent of early Discharge, is widely considered to be their definitive work. The band split up after lengthy touring in 1985. A posthumous compilation album of singles and live tracks entitled "Exhibit A" was released on Kustomized Records in 1997.

Samples from the opening track of Dehumanization, "Annihilation" was used by Orbital on the song "Choice" and was recently recorded in 2004 by A Perfect Circle for the Emotive album. Sepultura covered it as well as a bonus track on the album Nation (2001).


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifix_(band)

4:51 PM  
Blogger RDR said...

Anonymous 2:28pm said:

"Drugs or other mind alterants may or may not be essential for travel to other realms, but the "precepts of quantum physics" have little to say about it one way or the other. In fact, since quantum theory is being forced more and more to account for the state of the observer, a theoretical underpinning for the importance of drug use is certainly possible."

Yeah, on thinking about it, maybe you're right. That "theoretical underpinning is possible", I suppose. But where is it?

There's a difference between a subjective guess/fantastic speculation and an objectively testable hypothesis, from which such a theorical underpinning can be built. Thus far, I haven't encountered an explanation for "trans-dimensional travel via drugs" that rises to the level of an objectively testable hypothesis.

Of course, that may not be possible, considering the problems of dealing with an experience that inherently resists lending itself to replicable results according to pre-defined experimental criteria.

Still: if there's an actual alternate dimensional reality to be accessed via DMT, there ought to be something that those who journey into its bizarre precincts can retrieve to demonstrate its significance upon their return to the relatively more standard world of shared human consciousness.

I have heard anecdotes that the DMT experience in humans in close proximity to high-powered electrical sound amplifiers produces effects that hint at some sort of intensification of the bioelectric or magnetic field of the human body. That is something for which experiments could be objectively designed, I suppose. But even if such experiments yielded positive results, the wider significance would still be uncertain. The success of such an experiment wouldn't provide confirmation about mind travel to extraordinary dimensions under DMT, for instance. Not in and of itself, anyway. Although conceivably it might be a place to start...you know, have at it, intrepid explorers.

On the late Terence McKenna: although I never met him, I'm reasonably well-versed in his writings. I continue to like and admire the guy a lot, even though I eventually came to differ with many of the notions that he had. He had the sort of wide-ranging philosophical mind that was immensely engaging and entertaining. I find his fearless good humor inspiring.

Terence once said in regard to the psychedelic experience that it provided insights that "20 years of sweeping up around the ashram" could never approach. While I didn't find that the specific experience of DMT personally provided me with anything profound, I've had experiences with other classic psychedelics that do incline me to agree with him about that. But I wish that he could have allowed as to how the obverse is also true: a few years of applying oneself diligently to the task of "sweeping up", so to speak- whether in an ashram, a hospital, or a warehouse in Des Moines, etc.- can provide insights that no amount of psychedelic trips can grant.

5:15 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Here here.

Or is that

Hear hear.

6:44 PM  
Anonymous lavenderscavenger said...

If the use of entheogens reveals a dark dimensional level "hovering," as it were, just above our own, what does that say about Creation? We are fed from childhood that Creation is the product of a benevolent God. And while I'd like to think that, utlimately, true power resides only in benevolence, what if the Gnostics are right and material existence is the result, not of God's direct hand, but of some demiurge out to wrest power from God? That would explain the dark entities (they would be demons at the service of such a pseudo-Creator) and our own, human sense of not quite belonging to this world. Our job, then, would be exercise our freedom in throwing off the power of the demiurge, thus redeeming the material realm -- much like Frodo returning the Ring of Power to its evil source. The story of the Universe may be the same as the story of our struggle againt the State: freedom versus power.

7:02 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yeah, on thinking about it, maybe you're right. That "theoretical underpinning is possible", I suppose.

You are so cool.

7:32 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

To lavendarscav'/purple carrion eater:

Luciferian much?

What utter hogwash.

7:47 PM  
Anonymous Dugoboy said...

thank you edward, i didn't knoow actually. a rather fitting song i'd say.

1:31 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

mako,

Your post raised the hackles on my neck, for I too knew of one of the Manhattan Project boys. The man was my best friend's father who lived in the Hollywood Hills. They owned a two house compound in a secluded part of a canyon. He also, removed himself from all society and lived alone in one house while his wife and daughter lived in the other. His wife would deliver his food onto his doorstep daily with him rarely even speaking to her. I assumed he suffered from a great quilt over what he had participated in and was punishing himself - until I read your post. Chilling thought isn't it that "Nobody's in charge"?

To all other posters,

This has been a most productive and informative post. I feel as if I'm at a great communal fire and hearing deep truths and thoughts of my fellow clansmen.

1:34 AM  
Anonymous km artlu said...

I second the emotion expressed above in "to all other posters", as well as many other appreciations of this post and its comments scattered throughout.

Perhaps the vibrancy and quantity of this specific participation tells us something about the commonwealth's core interests and values.

1:54 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

hopefully this post won't be lost, appearing as does is at the end of a number of posts, but i'm gonna give it a shot cause i think what i have to relate belongs here...anyway, i'm 23 years old, and when i was ten and eleven years old i had a series of experiences for which i have never found any kind of acceptable explanation. in fourth grade, i began having periods of one to two minutes of deja vu, periods comprised of completely mundane events, but periods for which, though i had never experienced them before, i was completely certain of how events would proceed. i was never wrong. i would perhaps be walking down a hallway in school when suddenly i would drift into something like a fog, wherein my perceptions were only slightly distorted, but i could recall every moment that would occur for the extent of the fog as though it had happened a thousand times before. but that was just the beginning...in fifth grade, i began to have a series of what i guess i would call visions. they lasted for comparable lengths of time, but during these times it was as though i had blinked and found myself inside of (wait for it)...a music video. i would be sitting calmly in class, perhaps between periods, chatting with my friends, when once more i would find myself slipping into this fog. i would hear what i would years later come to recognize as a 'funky' beat, which beat in perfect time with all of the movements and random classroom noises around me. it was as though everything was suddenly happening for a reason, and i'd been let in on the rhyme. and nothing could be the same. it is difficult to impress the pervasive quality of these visions...i wasn't sleepy, and this was years before i began experimenting with drugs...it was just as though my brain suddenly shifted into a realm where everything was more obviously connected, where the unified theory of everything was just a dirty funk beat. i was visited by these visions probably seven or eight times throughout fifth grade, and each time they lasted a little shorter, as i actively tried to deny what i was seeing and hearing, believing as i did that i was going completely insane. eventually they stopped altogether, and in the 12 years since then i have never displayed any other penchant for unexplained hallucinations or much of anything else out of the ordinary.

but i have never forgotten.

does this sort of thing make sense to any of you? i've always been interested in DMT because of my own experiences, and particularly in ayahuasca, as i've read accounts of daime ceremonies and such that offer descriptions remarkably similar to what i experienced, though in my case it seemed to be without detectable cause. for me, the veil lifted of its own volition many, many years ago - but that doesn't do much to help me. i'd just like to know if anyone out there has an idea of what i might have seen. any words would be appreciated.

5:27 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Exerpts of a talk by Mother about entering the vital worlds:
To begin with, I said that the vital ( =astral plane) is peopled by small entities, small formations, the remnants of human beings who have died. But there is a whole vital world which has nothing to do with that one, a world peopled by beings of the vital proper, beings of great power and even great beauty. Most people who dabble in occultism without having a deep enough spiritual life are immediately deluded by them - some even take them as the supreme God and worship them. That's generally how religions are created. They are a great success. They are the supreme God of many a religion - they are beings of the vital world, and can assume an appearance of overwhelming beauty. They are the biggest impostors in the world, and dangerous at that; it takes the spiritual instinct, the instinct of true spiritual purity, not to be deceived by them.
Many religions and sects are founded on revelations and miracles, and every bit of it comes from vital beings.
It's one of the greatest problems in human life; I don't mean spiritual life, but the life of people who deal with the beyond.
There are skies (not heavens) in the vital world that are truly paradises. Naturally the real divine element is lacking, but only spiritual purity and the true spiritual sense can show you the difference. All who remain within the vital or mental worlds are completely deluded. They see marvelous things, miracles in profusion (that's where you find the most miracles!)….
…it's very easy for such beings to put on a disguise. It takes the inner psychic purity not to be deceived - you invariably FEEL something that makes it impossible for you to be duped. But otherwise, many, many people are taken in.
…It should at least be mentioned that some beings in the vital world can take on completely deceptive appearances at will - all the most dazzling lights are found in the vital, but with a particular quality. So those who have truly approached THE Light can't be deceived. Because ... it's indefinable, something the spiritual sense alone can feel: perfect security, perfect peace, perfect purity (although I hesitate to use the word "purity," which has taken on such an idiotic meaning); what I mean is the absence of all admixture.
To those with the spiritual sense, the most dazzling vital lights always seem to have something artificial about them - they FEEL artificial and cold, hard, aggressive, deceptive. But that's the point: you yourself must be beyond all this. Not to be fooled, you mustn't fool yourself!
Actually, that's the main reason I don't like to talk about occultism. It puts people in touch with an extremely dangerous world which can't be safely entered unless one is (I can't even say a saint, because it's not true; some saints enter the vital world and get right into it!) ... unless one is transformed, unless one has the true spiritual consciousness. On this condition alone are you perfectly safe. So where are the people with the spiritual consciousness? There are really very few of them, very few. And above all, in those who have this occult curiosity there are also all sorts of vital movements, which make it dangerous for them to enter that world…
Q.: But isn't it possible to have a fruitful collaboration with those beings? Should they be avoided altogether, or what?
A: Collaboration? Not with them as they are, and not in the world as it is - no.
I have told you about my dealings with the Lord of Nations on several occasions - it's that kind of thing. It can hardly be called collaboration!
The great ones know (I am not speaking of the multitude of minor beings, but the others; there are millions of emanations - emanations by the truckload! - but only a few great ones), they know enough to be aware of their own position in the universe and that they will come to an end. They know there is such a thing as the Supreme (although they deny it), and that they are cut off from the Supreme, and that they will come to an end. But they have taken a stand against the Work, the Action, the Progress, and are intent on destroying as much as they can.
Some of them get converted. Their conversion means a great entity joining the divine Work - but that seldom happens.
….In fact, practically speaking, that's why these things used to be kept secret: one should get knowledge ONLY when it's accompanied by discrimination enabling one to distinguish the origin of what is seen or received. One without the other makes for a dangerous weapon.
Some people have even been driven insane, through their own constant fear - out of fear they refused all protection. I tell you, only those with a great devotion and a great love are not deceived - a great devotion gives you an immediate sense of things; when your devotion goes like this (shrinking gesture), you know what it means. But your devotion must be sincere and very strong; it's the only protection.

http://mother-agenda.narod.ru/f3.htm

6:01 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

What the f... are you talking about? What did you do, overdose on "Lobsang Rampa"???

Get real.

6:27 AM  
Blogger Fat Lady said...

IMPORTANT! Strassman received funding for his DMT studies from...? Anyone? Anyone?

Why, I do believe it was the Masons. Says so in the early part of his book. When I broke with a group of people who were becoming a protocult devoted the study of such things, I threw the book away, so I can't be more specific than "early part": it's where he's describing some of the frustrations he had in trying to get the primary study up and running.

If anyone out there has the book currently in his or her possession, could you please confirm or "disconfirm" the Masons funding? It's really almost a throwaway comment of his--there's maybe a paragraph about it, and he seems a little puzzled by their wanting to fund the study.

Hm.

9:48 AM  
Anonymous prunes said...

In the Acknowledgements:
A generous research grant from the Scottish Rite Foundation for Schizophrenic Research helped establish the earliest phases of the DMT project's scientific merit.

For whatever that's worth.
Other funding was federal, from NIDA.

11:39 AM  
Blogger Sounder said...

Thanks to all posters. For your consideration;Abraham Heschel says essentally that ones relationship to the ineffable is defined by the direction of ones focus. Aristotle says this also whithin the formulation, The question defines the nature of the answer.

If true then we will do well
to examine closely the forces that shape the general psychic
expression. What elements make up our criteria for understanding?
We have been conditioned for centuries to defer to authority,
especially when under stress. This is the natural result Cartsian
Dualism ,and earlier machinations surrounding the Consul of Nicea,
where everything was put in its place including the expert class, there to tell you what that place was.

Science is a social construct, a religion, that requires for you to 'believe' that the spiritual and the
material are fundamentally different. However, if no essential
difference is postulated then we may be better positioned to conceptualize the manner by which the spiritual, the ineffable flowers
into the physical.

Nonbelievers may achieve phychic expressions that lie outside the realm of consual representations. Their dilemma is to
intergrate these things with current forms of understanding even though
the event may lie outside current boundry conditions. Their efforts
will be less frought with danger and conceptual comprimizes when we as
a collective see fit to adopt a fresh set of criteria for
understanding. Love to all.

12:06 PM  
Blogger Fat Lady said...

Hi prunes: thanks! Later, in the book itself, he elaborates some, for about a paragraph or two. Just find it odd...

12:59 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The Hopi concept of "hikwsi" is interesting in light of the above post citing the Hopi Indians, and this discussion in general.

"In the Hopi belief, death does not end a person's presence in the physical world, but marks a transition from one state of being to another or, in other words, from one form of experience to another. On the fourth day after death, a person's breath (hikwsi) leaves the body and goes to a place which represents the other realm of existence, not separated from the world of the living, but different in that this realm is unmanifested, unseen, and not accessible to the senses. In ethnographic and anthropological literature this symbolic place has been described as the Underworld, Lower World, Third World, or the World of the Dead (maski; mas-ki, "corpse-home"). According to Emory Sekaquaptewa, this concept can be expressed by a Hopi word, atkya, which literary means "down below."(1) The word atkya can refer not only to an area at the bottom of the Grand Canyon (Ongtupqa) called Sipaapuni, from which the Hopi came out of the Underworld, but also to an area seen from the tops of Hopi mesas in the southwestern direction. This area is marked with kiikiqo (literally, "ruins"; metaphorically, "footprints"), places inhabited once by Hopi ancestors (Hisatsinom) before they arrived at Hopi present settlements, such as, for instance, Homol'ovi, Wupatki, Tsor'ovi (Tuzigoot), and others. hikwsi of the dead is believed to have the ability to return to the Hopi mesas in visible forms of clouds, rain (or katsinam) and act as an animating force in the sensuous world of the living."

The preceding was taken from an excellent article by Maria D. Glowacka titled "The Concept of Hikwsi in Traditional Hopi Philosophy".

It can be viewed in its entirety at
http://www.timestar.org/hopihikwsi.htm

1:25 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think it’s interesting, given Strassman’s association with the Freemasons, that “(He) ended his clinical studies of the drug in part because he gave serious weight to the warning of a "highly intuitive" friend who told him she saw "evil spirits hovering around you. They want to come through this plane, using you and the drugs."

Again, this smacks of “official” involvement regarding the control of these “entheogens” or “ethereal” info.

I’m reminded of Jeff’s earlier postings on the Skinwalker Ranch (and Robert Bigelow’s subsequent involvement), and of what an anthropologist friend who lives near the Amazon once told me: That the U.S. Government had sent “observers” on numerous occasions to the Amazon basin to observe Ayahuasca ceremonies within several indigenous tribes.

4:26 PM  
Blogger RDR said...

"Science is a social construct, a religion, that requires for you to 'believe' that the spiritual and the material are fundamentally different."

Science is not a "social construct". It's a method of testing hypotheses about the way the phenomenal world works via objective criteria, and replicable results. As such, it's a universal technique, not a socioculturally relative one. Mathematics, physics, and chemistry manifest their laws heedless of "social construction."

The "spiritual" realm doesn't follow the rules of such objective experimental logic- which is, indeed, a "fundamental difference" from what can be found to exist within the purview of science. Hence the separation.

"However, if no essential
difference is postulated then we may be better positioned to conceptualize the manner by which the spiritual, the ineffable flowers
into the physical."

I don't think so. If there's no "essential difference" between "the spiritual" and "the physical", spiritual attainment simply becomes another technology amenable to the proper set of physical conditions and formulae; while scientific achievement and material advance requires nothing more than "conceptualization", idealization and imagination.

That is, if I understand the use of terms in the associated message correctly. Frankly, I find that post to be so rife with metaphysical jabberwocky that it's subject to all sorts of semantic confusions.

For instance, consider a phrase like "...the ineffable flowers into the physical." What's that supposed to mean?

4:42 PM  
Anonymous albion said...

anonymous @ 7:41 - excellent screed against shamanism. so true!

4:43 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

More clarification from Strassman's study from an actual research subject...me. Nearly all the funding came from govt. sources. Part of the purpose of the study was to determine any possible therapeautic benefits of DMT, including treatment for schizophrenia. So, it wouldn't seem unreasonable for charitable organizaitions to contribute to the funding. As for the other comment about "administering a beta blocker" to counter the soaring blood pressure of one subject. Yes, his blood pressure soared to stroke territory and set of the secondary alarm on the blood pressure monitor. However, NO medication was administered. I should know, he was my husband and I was there during his trip. The interesting thing about DMT is that those most "afraid" have the worst experience. One good thing Strassman tried to teach the subjects was to surrender to the experience. Those who could reaped the most benefits; those who couldn't found the experience either terrifying or not useful.

5:56 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

RDR - Thank you! Enough already with the mumbo-jumbo-newage-bullshit, "the ineffable flowers" and "talk(s) by Mother" (who's Mother?). Let's keep it real here. I say, state your position, but if it's not your own authentic experience, be ready to defend it by citation, and/or, at minimum, reason. I like to think that the word "rigorous" has meaning. And while I'm on this rant, some posters ought to make an aquaintance with a dictionary and basic writing skills.

6:08 PM  
Blogger RDR said...

I think it's too bad that so many posters are choosing to remain anonymous, particularly those claiming participation in Strassman's DMT study. I'm not judging- there are obvious defensible reasons for remaining anonymous, unfortunately- but still, it hampers verification and validation, which I find necessary before proceeding with a dialogue on these matters.

Similar problems exist with other "entheogen" boards on the 'Net. I've read quite a few anecdotal accounts of various mind-manifesting drug/ethnobotanical experiences on-line, and while I find most of them to have the ring of authenticity, there's no way to be sure. And then there are other posts, which read to me like obvious frauds, even invitations to folly by the unwary and overly credulous. At any rate, there's an inherent untrustworthiness to discussing these matters on-line, or even in print, if the subjects aren't available for follow-up questioning.

I have reason to believe that there are people out there who are actively interested in channeling peoples psychedelic experiences in malevolent directions by using the powers of verbal suggestion. For instance, I recall reading an old issue of High Frontiers magazine, the oversize issue with the hot-pink cover. There was a letter claiming that when one ingested DMT while looking westward off the coast of California, the user would be granted a prophetic vision of mushroom clouds in the distance. You know, "I have seen the future, and China got nuked." There are all sorts of similar such Bad Trip suggestions in various similar publications devoted to the psychedelic experience. Who can forget the paranoid rants of "Xandor Korzybski", tales of government-engineered cannabis genetically modified to cause permanent brain damage to the memory faculties and psychotic dissasociation, etc., etc.?

Some people are just out there to work you, and play you.

I think that the component of pre-suggestion needs to be factored into psychedelic experiences, particularly in the case of the particularly intense and overwhelming visionary experiences like high-dose psilocybin, DMT, and ayahuasca. There's a great deal of folklore that's already grown up around those experiences, and it may be influencing the community of users unduly. I'd like to hear more about accounts of such experiences by those who haven't been pre-exposed to popular literature that emphasizes "insectoid alien" entities associated with DMT, or snakes and jaguars associated with ayahuasca, etc. Are even those subjects who are naive of such oral and written folklore receiving such visitations by the same menagerie of the imaginal realm?

Unfortunately, because people who are curious about psychedelic experiences often read omnivorously on the most popular accounts before doing their own experiments- a natural tendency- it's probably difficult to find subjects nowadays who come to their first experience without a set of conditioned expectations...

7:07 PM  
Anonymous annalivia said...

What is being suppressed?

That we can take the liberty to liberate ourselves any time we choose to.

Who profits?

The answer is so obvious it would pain me to repeat it.




Can you spare just a little change, Man? Can you spare just a little change?

9:12 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Speaking of LSD, here is a neat site that I just found:

http://www.noveltynet.org/content/books/neurologic/index.html

Wow. That stuff is weird.

9:19 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

All these ghosts and ghoulies and long leggedie beesties and things that go bump in the night ...

Just another way to scare you and aid in the ongoing project of transferring wealth from us to them.


We're not going to make any magic revelations and we're not going to tell you secrets of the realm which could lead to public dismemberment at Tyndall Cross because the authors of this confidential memorandum don't know a damn thing but what we read in the papers. And the papers are all owned by or subverted by and bought and paid for by what disingenuous folks call "the powers that be." The regime which is allegedly headed by one George W. Bush, son of George H.W. Bush, son of Prescott Bush, pretends to be the democratically elected government of the free country of the United States of America, while it has been well established that electoral fraud was perpetrated on two occasions and that either Albert Gore or John Kerry is our legally elected President. Furthermore, said Bush, has perpetrated a regime of defiance of constitutional law, committing acts of arbitrary imprisonment of American citizens, illegal wiretapping on a massive scale, illegally taking the nation to war, and many other criminal acts too numerous to mention. Said alleged President has furthermore used a purported terrorist attack which occurred on September 11, 2001, which was claimed, but never proved, to have been committed by one Osama bin Laden, to justify said actions. Said alleged perpetrator has never been captured or produced either dead or alive in any court of law. Said alleged President has never had any response to the following attacks on the United States of America following September 11, 2001:

1. The assault on the El Al airline desk at LA International Airport
2. The Anthrax attacks on the News Media and US Congress
3. The Washington Sniper Attacks
4. The mysterious airplane crash of Senator Paul Wellstone
5. The mysterious failure of the levees in New Orleans

Given the climate of secrecy since that infamous date, one must assume that numerous other, equally devastating attacks have occurred but have not been reported in the press. To these must be added the international terrorist attacks, which include:

1. Two attacks on Bali
2. Bombings of synagogues in France and Tunisia
3. London train bombings
4. Madrid train bombings
5. Muslim riots in France
6. Various incidents in Russia and former Soviet Union

Again, add attacks which have been concealed in the press. For these reasons, one can conclude that the war on terrorism so called has not yet been a success. Various disinformation agents and agents-provocateurs and ex-communists and Nazis have been actively promoting the propaganda point that the Bush administration and its backers in International Capitalism a.k.a. Zionism were behind the September 11 attacks, which are termed an "inside job." We cannot comment on whether this gang of wholly unreliable sources might have a point because of their obviously skewed point of view. It would seem to this observer that if someone were planning to attack or invade the United States and that 9-11 were the "Pearl Harbor" of that battle plan, that Phase II would have started by now. If they are going to attack the US and seize its wealth and natural resources for the benefit of (we must assume) the Arabs, then there should be takeovers of US assets by Arabs and liquidations of US ownership and massive extermination of US military personnel. None of that has happened. Either the US counterattack has been successful or the Arabs are biding their time. Skeptics in the US point out that Iraq was not part of the Bin Laden conspiracy and that Bush went off on a wild goose chase. Once the US military is spent in Iraq and the Bin Laden forces are regrouped, they will mount another full frontal assault on the US, the likes of which makes 9-11 look like child's play. Sleeping Presidents like Bush will be swept away. Those who complain now about creeping fascism will wish we had the real thing. We need the sharpest and smartest, the truly best and brightest (no McNamara's please!), to lead our country at this critical juncture. Don't believe for a second that the massive forces of international finance based in floating international anonymity which made a killing on 9-11 won't just decide to kill America economically next time. They are our competitors. The true backers of 9-11 were massive international business powers who could make a buck by killing Americans. Osama Bin Laden is #1 a businessman operating by the ultimate rules of the free market in the Bazaar where all prices are negotiable and everything is for sale and only #2 a warrior and #3 a religious figure. The Bushie Babies are mere Yalies who make money because my grand-daddy knew your grand-daddy and we are all frat boys so gimme the secret handshake. Give me a break. With the Bush forces in power, America will LOSE the so-called "war on terror" if it hasn't already been lost and they haven't bothered to tell us. We need a president - not who will claim to want to find and capture Bin Laden -- but one who will shut down the war on terror, investigate the 9-11 disaster and find out who REALLY did it and defeat them within 6 months or less. Anything less is not worthy of being called President.

9:19 PM  
Blogger TonyForesta said...

For those looking for a rocket ride to other dimensions ( and I cannot and will not begin to describe this experience in human terms) do your own googles on Salvia Divinorum.

It is an otherworldly 'shamanic" experience if used properly, - but like all dabblings with spiritual conciousness it is not for the fient of heart, or those not willing to embark upon explorations of truly wild and brave new worlds. Find a friend, a safe place, and buckle up.

9:47 PM  
Blogger Jeff said...

Fat Lady and prunes, thanks very much for the Scottish Rite connection to Strassman's funding, I'd missed that. I hope that's a lesson for me to never skip over acknowledgements again.

10:45 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

To the woman who referenced her husband’s participation in the Strassman studies,

Not everything was discussed in “study group” with Laura and Rick out on Moon Road.
Another participant, much younger than your husband, had an adverse bp response during one of the dose-determining pilot studies. Ask Rick, since you don’t live all that far from where he lives now if you haven’t moved since then. And the reasons the studies were ended did certainly have to do with Rick’s ex-wife’s health, attempting to commute from Canada to NM, and, more to the point, the fact that a more senior faculty member at UNM had managed to wrest control of the study from him in these circumstances. But since she was not the Principal Investigator, it was his show and he shut it down. Calling him a “weenie” is a cheap shot. If you said he was deceptive and had other agenda in this work, I would very much agree.

To whomever said these studies were about “therapy” that is completely inaccurate. There were a number of studies after the pilot work. The major one was a “tolerance” study, and there was another sequence involving pre-treatment, given orally the night before the dmt was to be given iv, with different serotinergic agonists, antagonists, and partial agonists. I do not know if any of this stuff is in his book, but you can email him and ask him yourself if it is all so interesting to anyone. There was never a “therapeutic” aspect to any one of Rick’s studies, neither the DMT or psilocybin pilot studies, the tolerance study, nor the multiple serotinergic agent studies. Not one.

As for the Scottish Rite Foundation funding, that came out of the Scottish Rite Temple in Santa Fe. There was at least one lower ranking mason from there who was a subject in the study. He seemed a very sincere fellow. Nothing appeared sinister about his involvement. But who knows? I do not. Just before closing up shop on all of this, Rick had received all the necessary government permissions and paperwork to conduct an LSD study with human subjects, including an import license. Since no such document even existed in the US Gov’t stock of forms, he was invited to design his own form by the DEA. No kidding.

But what, as Firesign Theatre might have put it, of that?

None of it amounts to a hill of beans. As one tiny example of the world as it is in other places, in Peru, IBM middle level managers have gone on corporate sponsored San Pedro weekends in the mountains, and on Ayahuasca management retreats in the jungle. This is from direct personal acquaintance with one of the managers over five years ago. So it’s out there, dear friends.

As for the guy who thinks that people who claim zionists/bankers/Bushes et al are NOT behind 9/11, Madrid, Bali, London, (don’t forget Waco), then you are yourself either a shill for them, or so woefully lost that you must have been looking for Rush Limbaugh or Al Franken (it don’t matter, they are whores for the same pimps) when you came upon this site by accident. If your absurd assertions weren’t so dangerous I would say that they make me laugh. But they don’t. They make me nervous. Osama bin Laden has been dead for over four years. Al Qaeda was the name given to the CIA database of mujahideen recruited to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan by the Jimmy Carter administration way back in the 1970’s. May you should read a bit more, eh? Or go haunt somplace else.

And to RDR, there are good reasons for maintaining even the minimal anonymity that this site affords. And that is not very much at all.

Also to RDR, I beg to differ with you on the issue of the spiritual/material world or universe. Why do you assume that if they were the same, that causation and action would all then be merely material, physical and amoral? This is importing an entire set of philosophical baggage, cargo even, without any need to do so.

Why not consider the issue of moral causation as a real, concrete thing? It turns out to be a very narrow and incomplete conception of reality, if I may say so without meaning to be rude, to assume that spirit and matter are somehow non-intersecting, or non-interpenetrating. This, I think, is the one great fallacy of most Western thought that has led us to precisely the unfortunate point in our history where we now find ourselves.

The only schism between spirit and matter is in the mind of the one who conceives it to be so, in my opinion. The unity of matter and spirit also happens, not ironically, to be the view embraced by sufism. There are stranger things [or more subtle and beautiful], Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

Peace to one and all from my heart to yours.

11:43 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

typo:

strike "people who claim"

12:44 AM  
Blogger Sounder said...

The heliocycles of the Ptolemaic system were mathematically coherent and logically consistent within that context. At the time one would have been considered 'crazy' to believe differently. Facts are context dependant and therefore the initial premise is quite important. As the antecedent cannot be proven via the consequent, our faith in 'science' is as charming as the infallible Pope.

7:37 AM  
Blogger Sounder said...

The heliocycles of the Ptolemaic system were mathematically coherent and logically consistent within that context. At the time one would have been considered 'crazy' to believe differently. Facts are context dependant and therefore the initial premise is quite important. As the antecedent cannot be proven via the consequent, our faith in 'science' is as charming as the infallible Pope.

7:38 AM  
Anonymous starroute said...

Sounder -

That all depends on what you mean by 'science.'

Do you mean the current grabbag of accepted facts and theories?

Do you mean the 19th century philosophy of mechanistic materialism?

Or do you mean the approach of believing nothing except what can be known through direct experience, combined with tentative hypotheses based on that experience?

Any one of those may be what is meant when people say, "Science tells us that . . ." But the third (which has its roots in late medieval occultism and is basically mystical in nature) is deserving of genuine respect, where the other two are not.

9:26 AM  
Blogger RDR said...

Anonymous 11:43pm, you said:

"Why do you assume that if [ the spiritual and material realms ] were the same, that causation and action would all then be merely material, physical and amoral? This is importing an entire set of philosophical baggage, cargo even, without any need to do so."

The post to which I was referring faced me with problem of defining terms, and the associated properties connoted by them. I was thinking mathematically, considering the notion that positing a fully shared identity of the material and "spiritual" realms implied a commutative property, so to speak, of their interchangeability.

That isn't the same as claiming that there are no points/fields of contact between the two realms- in some cases, such connections are vitally important, I think.

"Why not consider the issue of moral causation as a real, concrete thing?"

I value the concept of the moral law very highly. My problem has to do more with the notion of "causation." I think that moral influence on "causation" is a very difficult-to-impossible thing to calculate "concretely." I wish that benevolent and noble intentions always yielded beneficient results. But that plainly isn't the case. And it's difficult to assess "moral purity"- even in the subjective case, in regard to ones own actions. I think it's a quality well worth striving after, but lifetime consistency and perfection are frustratingly difficult to achieve, to understate the case. ( "Unattainable" is probably a more honest estimate. Not to discourage anyone from trying... )

I also think that the physical/material realm has its own sets of conditions. A rickety bridge built by an incompetent builder will collapse despite the noblest intentions.

But, as I said previously, some shared agreement on the specific definitions of terms like "spiritual", "material", "realm", "moral", "causation", etc. would need to be arrived at before this particular discussion can proceed much further. We may not even be referring to the same ideas at this point.

That said, your response and points are very thought-provoking. And I think that there's potentially at least an evenings worth of good conversation to be drawn from that one post.

Sounder, your post about Ptolemaic astronomy brings up an interesting historical vignette. But I think you're mistaken in thinking that it shows that "science" is nothing more than another type of dogmatic paradigm. It was the continuing reliance on scientific method that eventually found the flaws and falsifiability in Ptolemy's geocentric theory, and science maintains the adaptive capability of advancing when obsolete theories are superceded. Science has no need of clutching ideas. It's human stubborness and egotism that create the difficulties in that regard.

Science isn't a "theory", in and of itself. It's a method of testing theories, within limits. As such, it allows for both theoretical and practical relativities of context, and for the continual expansion of the factual knowlege base- the accumulation of content. Scientific method is bounded, but the parameters of its utility are awfully wide-ranging in most cases, particularly on technical questions.

10:31 AM  
Anonymous dude h said...

http://www.greylodge.org/occultreview/glor_002/shaman.htm

its intimidating to even post on this list, you guys are so sharp.

nonetheless, since it displeases the archons so, i submit the above link, and moreover the entire issue that accompanies it, for your perusal.

10:33 AM  
Blogger Professor Pan said...

To "anonymous" who wrote about the negative effects of MDMA (Ecstasy):

I can't disagree more heartily. For many people I've known, MDMA has lifted the veils, and helped them become more empathic, attuned to the foibles and suffering of other sentient beings, and opened up levels of personal understanding that may have never opened. Far from leading them to embrace the NWO, it has made them understand the banality of it and to reject it. Of course, the people I know are not brain-dead candy ravers, and they don't use entheogens and empathogens just for a night out on the town.

MDMA can also heal people of deep, painful trauma by allowing them to process the traumatic events and come to term with them. It works dramatically and quickly, unlike drawn out, conventional therapy or the dulling effect of many antidepressant therapies. And having seen terminal cancer patients experience not only psychological relief, but physical relief of pain, I find it criminal that the substance is not available to them.

Of course *abuse* of anything can be detrimental. But sacramental use, within safe boundaries, is not equivalent to Huxley's "soma" by any means. The evidence is becoming more clear that occasional usage is not harmful.

My usage was long ago, and I no longer feel the need to access that state. But the lessons I learned from it continue to be important and beneficial. I wouldn't trade those hours of insight for anything.

To reduce the shamanic worldview to a "power" trip shows ignorance of the multifaceted aspects of the oldest of spiritual technologies.

Although I've mentioned it before, I will do so again: Jim DeKorne's book, "Psychedelic Shamanism," does as good a job describing an ecology of ultraterrestrials/Archons as anything I've ever read. The book should be on every psychonaut's shelf. It's cautionary stance should be absorbed and heeded before entering the DMT realms.

You're on the right track, Jeff.

On another note, there has always been speculation about the underground history (or prehistory) of LSD and a hidden strand of sacramental usage of ergot preparations that predates Hofman's "discovery." Much of it is "off-the-record" and speculative, but many researchers believe that the official story hides a rich history extending from the Eleusinian cults into the modern era.

12:22 PM  
Blogger Professor Pan said...

One other quick note, to RDR's excellent analysis of the DMT experience:

It is important to understand that injected or smoked DMT is a qualitatively different experience than oral ingestion of ayahuasca (DMT plus MAO inhibitors). While the quick action of smoked or injected DMT may be too intense and quick for many people to process, ayahuasca (or some of the more recent "pharmahuasca" preparations) lends itself to deeper insights because the experience itself is longer in duration and not as much of a rollercoaster ride.

Just something to consider. This is an excellent thread, and I'm happy to see some of Strassman's subjects fllling in some of the blanks.

Peace to all seekers.

12:47 PM  
Anonymous The Omega Man said...

**NEW DEVELOPMENT**

Sorry all for being off-topic but I wanted to share some news that's completely relevent to progressive and informative blogs such as this.

"A newly declassified document gives a fascinating glimpse into the US military's plans for "information operations" - from psychological operations, to attacks on hostile computer networks."

The document says information is "critical to military success"


Bloggers beware.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4655196.stm

Anyone still doubt the effectiveness and power of blogs such as RI?

12:57 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ayahuasca is longer lasting by far, and often WAY more intense than even RS's iv version, contrary to his own assertions made in ignorance, and to anything you have read. And that's a fact, Jack. He only administered the stuff, and was almost completely ignorant, experientially and otherwise, of traditional uses.

On a related front, the “scientific method” is not what it claims to be, namely:

1. Hypothesis formation through a process of “inductive logic” based on observed events or phenomena.

2. Experimental testing of the hypothesis.

3. Hypothesis revision, retesting, et cetera until the thing works.

First of all, detailed analyses by logicians such as William Van Ormand Quine and Clark Glymour show that there really is no such process as inductive logic at work. It may even well be that induction itself is a logical fallacy. Don’t take my word for it. These two blokes have written treatises on the subject and taught many graduate seminars in advanced logic on this very subject. As the original post above and several subsequent comments have shown, scientists have based their original theories/hypotheses on deep intuition, dreams, and altered states, as witnessed to by Archimedes, Kekule’, Einstein, Crick, and Mullis, and countless others. Find me even one who can show how any purported “inductive logic” entered into the picture.

Secondly, counter to what we are taught in school, a real scientist sets up his experimental paradigm to disprove his hypothesis rather than to prove it. This is very clear if one has ever engaged in experimental science.

As for the use of mdma or another psychedelic in the hands of a competent and well-intended therapist, yes, I would agree this can be helpful, even extraordinarily so and with little risk. That clinical paradigm does not exist in the U.S. at the present timel. The only therapists are underground, so to speak, and some of the ones I have met and observed and with whom I have discussed these matters with for days and weeks at a clip in residence are sketchy in their knowledge, skills, and motivation, to say the least. And that is most true of the best known of these “underground” practitioners.

Yes, antidepressants are dangerous drugs. Many do not do what is claimed but for a few people. You have the same problem with mainstream clinicians as in the underground, complicated by the fact of the massive fraud of falsified clinical research financed by by pharma. That is a long winded issue in itself. No argument in principle on that.

Jim de Korne’s book is so woefully inaccurate on some of its chemistry and phytobotany that I wouldn’t even go beyond that to his bogus new age takes on traditional shamanism. He is guilty of writing and saying far more than he actually knows, as are some visitors to Moon Ranch Road.

Once again into the breach on moral causality. RDR, you are probably correct that our relative vocabularies are not in synch, but it is worth way more than an evening’s discussion to sort it out. And it is experience, rather than discussion, that is the eating which is the proof of the pudding. Why give such a simplistic demurral as to make it seem that moral causation has anything to do with willing an ill-constructed bridge to stand? No, this is either magic or wishful thinking, and a spiritual non sequitur. “If wishes were horses then beggars would ride.” And the road to hell [or the way to the river below in the fall from the ill-made bridge, to take your metaphor] is paved with good intentions.

The issue is just a tad deeper than that, to say the least. That kind of response is in the realm of either non-sequitur, or false dichotomy. Maybe a quick draught of some jungle potion would help for the truly hard-headed. Maybe not. You picks your poison and you takes your chances.

Moral causation is far subtler than you seem to grok at the moment. Of course the bad guys get away with shit. Of course bad things happen to good people. Of course no one is ever pure. As soon as they imagine that they are, then they are really fucked, on a spiritual level. And I don’t mean that in a good way. And even a well-engineered and correctly constructed bridge may fall for a host of reasons BEYOND human control, and, even, sometimes, beyond human understanding. Aye, there’s the rub.

Check out some stories of khidr, or khizr. And try to avoid the new-agey stuff on the web that imagines khidr to be a kind of kokopelli/xochipili. That is a gross over-simplification. The best place to find his story is in Sura 18, al khaf, the cave, in the Qur’an, where he tries to instruct a very hard-headed Moses who finally admits his refractoriness.

Khidr figures in much of the writings of Jelaluddin Rumi, and pops up throughout the Masnavi (or Mathnawi as it is sometimes spelled), but that is 6 volumes and 40,000 lines of mystical verse, all uttered spontaneously from out of a deep yoga.

Also you might check out the malamatiyya, adherents of the malamati, or path of blame. It was a method, often misunderstood and misused by its own adherents, and not really a tariqa per se. But these are as good places as any to start.

Any errors herein are mine and mine alone. Any valid, useful ‘truths’ that may have leaked through are thanks to my teachers, my forebears, and ultimately by the grace of my Maker.

1:20 PM  
Anonymous prunes said...

RDR sez: I was thinking mathematically, considering the notion that positing a fully shared identity of the material and "spiritual" realms implied a commutative property, so to speak, of their interchangeability.

Is supposing a bijective identity warranted? I say no.

IMO, the "physical" is a strict subset of the "spiritual". Boehme said something to the effect that the "flesh is only known though the spirit", i.e. all physical phenomena are only apprehended through a spiritual function or organ, which is much harder to do experiments on. Essentially, every investigator who wishes to duplicate results cannot defer to authorities like refereed journals, but must engage in his own internal experimentation to determine if "spiritual facts" do indeed hold for him.

What is ordinarily thought of as "scientific inquiry" is, except for pure phenomenology, restricted to the purely quantitative, which is, in turn, restricted to the purely procedural. That is to say, any physical experiment can be boiled down to an algorithm expressed strictly in human movements and sensory information.

"Spirtual inquiry" cannot be expressed as such, for reasons that will become obvious if one takes "spirituality" seriously enough to do some real introspection. Spirtual realities are supraformal; they cannot be expressed in forms.

1:31 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Form is formlessness, and formlessnes form.

~Hridaya sutra.

Try reading chapter 17 of Aldous Huxley's Brave New World. Brilliant. It will move you to tears.

3:12 PM  
Blogger RDR said...

Enjoying the critique immensely.

I'm beginning to hear what you critics- anon 1:20pm and prunes- are getting at: the idea that the replicability of scientific method is relevant primarily to the denser "realm" or "vibratory level" of Newtonian physics.

Whereas, laborotory experiments designed to inquire into the subtle "realm" of quantum events in particle physics can only indicate in the most general sense the presence of uncanny effects, because at that point the precepts of what is often referred to as "alchemy" begin to kick in...full-field effects, notions of Universe as Mind, etc.- field effects of a truly pervasive nature, within in which such artifacts as laboratories and measuring instruments are but components dissolved in the ultimate continuum of the indivisible...

At least, that's what I think you all are getting at.

Hmmm...mulling that one over.

I also take the point about scientific breakthroughs often being initiated not through logical, rational processes, but through outright inspiration.

4:05 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Typo again: That should have read "botany and phytochemistry". My dyslexia is peaking through the veil too.

RDR, dude, you are still so concrete and linear in your thinking about this stuff. To pursue some of your line of thought however, maybe you might look into the field of neurophenomenology. It might help clarify a few things. Or not.

But maybe you need to cleanse those doors a bit. Just try fasting a day or two. Unless you're a diabetic or hypoglycemic. It's cheaper, less risky, and often more subtly revealing that a blast of jungle potion.

Peace, bro'.

4:13 PM  
Anonymous danDNA said...

it has occured to me, and im sure a few others, that these states of mind of which you speak are achievable not only by the use of drugs but also by the mind alone. are they not the same discriptions that are given by some(thought not all, interestingly) mediums, holy shamen and also by religious converts like, for instance the prophet mohammed and francis of assisi?
then maybe these states of mind are related to the true depth of the human mind, which in our time we are only seeing the tip of, so to speak. maybe the unconscious mind is so truely frightening and full of dark, obscure things that when the conscious mind even glimpses it for a second it is driven back with tales of other worlds and other beings. and just maybe some people are more in touch with the demons and aliens inside that they are less afraid to make contact.
the scientists who do manage to have insight in dreams and visions are maybe a little more in touch with the unconscious mind, the mind which knows all, and can reveal its secrets only to the few who can read from it using intuition.
i have recently started visiting an accupuncturist and it only occured to me today that accupuncture has no logical/conscious way of working. as this form of medicine well predates our western medicine(it has been practiced for many thousands of years) perhaps this technique too was gleaned using the unconscious mind? the ammount of energy points used in accupuncture are too many and too well established to have been discovered by chance, plus no points have been added in even recent times, which probably shows that the technique was established all at once, which would be unheard of in todays over-conscious world.
i think the unconscious is there to serve us a purpose, and for the most part we choose to ignore it, but in more ancient times they did not, and so it helped to guide them. the question is, at what point did we turn this mind over to the dark side, and lose control of our ability to use intuition for all of our benefit?

4:18 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dandna: Good observations and questions. But, most of humanity did not "turn this mind over to the dark side, and lose control of our ability to use intuition for all of our benefit." We still have it. Find it and use it well. Seek and ye shall find. That is the point.

4:29 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

the Chinese character for heart "hsin" also means mind.

There's the best clue you'll likely ever get.

4:32 PM  
Blogger RDR said...

"RDR, dude, you are still so concrete and linear in your thinking about this stuff."

Considering my natural temperament, I feel that it's important- imperative, even- for me to provide some countervailing ballast. I think it's served me well to do that.

I admit that I'm probably due for a serious refresher course, so to speak, on some of these topics we've been discussing- a combination of intensive seminar and extended sabbatical, as it were...presently, my responsibilities to others preclude that, but I anticipate being able to clear some time out before too long.

Scientific method has its limits in the realm of learning about the effects of psychedelics on consciousness. But I think it's important to use it to take those little steps into the unmarked state, the realm of the unknown but knowable, a bite at a time.

A possible DMT experiment I'd like to have performed: tests for improved psychic abilities in the immediate aftermath of the experience, in the afterglow before the conditioning associated with "identity" and its preoccupations fully kicks in again.

4:33 PM  
Anonymous prunes said...

Whereas, laborotory experiments designed to inquire into the subtle "realm" of quantum events in particle physics can only indicate in the most general sense the presence of uncanny effects, because at that point the precepts of what is often referred to as "alchemy" begin to kick in...full-field effects, notions of Universe as Mind, etc.- field effects of a truly pervasive nature, within in which such artifacts as laboratories and measuring instruments are but components dissolved in the ultimate continuum of the indivisible...

Sorta what I was trying to get at... I would say rather that experiments where so-called quantum effects become evident are experiments that have become complicated enough that the "observer" can no longer be ignored. This is still a pretty imprecise notion for me, but I am sure that there is a strong argument along these lines.

Every thing is known only through the internal life of the human, which a materialistic worldview pretends is "illusory" somehow. It is far more accurate to say that matter is illusory, since we only know of matter through the senses, and we only know senses through the organ known as Imagination, the "imaging" function of mind.

We can say mind pervades the universe, but it is, I think, a little more accurate to say that universe is internal to mind.

Corbin:
There is our physical sensory world, which includes both our earthly world (governed by human souls) and the sidereal universe (governed by the Souls of the Spheres); this is the sensory world, the world of phenomena (molk). There is the suprasensory world of the Soul or Angel-Souls, the Malakut, in which there are the mystical cities that we have just named, and which begins "on the convex surface of the Ninth Sphere." There is the universe of pure archangelic Intelligences.
To these three universes correspond three organs of knowledge: the senses, the imagination, and the intellect, a triad to which corresponds the triad of anthropology: body, soul, spirit-a triad that regulates the triple growth of man, extending from this world to the resurrections in the other worlds.


Everything known and everything knowable begins with the self and ends with the self.

4:51 PM  
Anonymous starroute said...

There are matters tangled up in our ideas about causality that aren't necessarily "spiritual" but still refuse to fit neatly within the framework of contemporary science.

Start with "X happened because of Y." Suppose that "X" is "the pool ball went into the pocket." Then what is "Y"? Is it "because the pool cue struck it with just the right force and angle"? Or is it "because a highly skilled and perceptive pool player who was motivated to win propelled it in just the right way"?

Modern science tries to keep its distance from "becauses" of the second kind, which it regards as unacceptably teleological. But trying to explain "why" the cue ball went into the pocket purely by means of behavioral psychology -- substituting an elaborate and unlikely Rube Goldberg sequence of mechanical stimuli and responses in the attempt to avoid talking about intent -- is no more satisfactory.

This tension is particularly strong in conventional evolutionary theory, which would have us believe that the universe mindlessly beats us about with hammers and then shakes us in a sieve with holes that happen to let through only those that have been deformed in just the right manner. All the evidence that organisms shape their own evolution (by everything from body chemistry to maternal indulgence) has been cast aside in favor of the crudest possible mechanical analogies.

What modern science is afraid to admit, of course, is not the existence of intention in living creatures but the existence of purpose in the universe as a whole.

Why do we seek to survive, to prevail, and to evolve? Why is it that robots that have been given some goal to pursue strike us as oddly life-like in their behavior in a way that no matter of tinkering with artificial intelligence has ever accomplished? Why is there a vector of emergent properties in the universe, and why is that same vector apparently pre-programmed into every one of us?

Those aren't spiritual questions -- or at least not spiritual in the sense of referring to some other, non-material order of being. They refer to some quality which appears to be built into every atom of the universe and to be a property of the universe as a whole. And yet they remain entirely outside the ability of science-as-we-know-it to incorporate.

I don't blame science itself for this, by the way. When you look at the question historically, it seems to be far more a result of religion worrying that if science was allowed to entertain ideas about a teleological cosmos, it would undercut belief in an old-style manipulative god. But if that's the case, then it's more than time to move on.

4:54 PM  
Anonymous slomo said...

Many of the recent scientific advances in the study of "causality" have occured in epidemiology, in effect to answer "what causes disease?"

The philosophy is still of course quite linear (i.e. does not involve any kind of synchronicity of the form that I have experienced in my other/double life dabbling in mysticism). However, it is still quite rich and illuminating.

Eventually, you come to a question that is quite similar to the one that Starroute just asked: is the billiard ball's trajectory caused by another ball, or a particular agent's intentional actions? In epidemiology, it is relevant to consider whether the "causal effect" (which is usually defined in stochastic terms) is to be defined with respect to what has been observed, or with respect to what actions (i.e. treatments or exposures) have been performed. The answer often depends on which choice you make.

7:08 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Great, great discussion! I think it's been best when folks stick to the concrete as much as possible. The character and integration of perception is nearly the whole point here. Albert Hoffmann, not surprisingly (happy 100th, Al!) is very lucid on this topic (from "LSD as a Spiritual Aid"):

---
... After my first experiences with LSD, the question arose for me: Which is true, the picture of the world as we perceive it with our everyday consciousness or the overwhelming image under the influence of entheogens?

This caused me to analyze what we know about the mechanism of perceiving reality.

Perception presupposes a subject that perceives and an object, which is perceived. In human relations the subject that perceives is the individual human being, more exactly his consciousness, and the object perceived is the outer material world.

It is of the greatest importance to be aware of the fundamental fact that the outer world consists objectively of nothing more than matter and energy.

In order to make conspicuous the mechanism of our experiencing reality, I have chosen a metaphor from television. The material world functions as transmitter, emanates optical, acoustical, gustatory, olfactory, and tactile signals that are recived by the antennae, by our sensory organs, eyes, ears, tongue, nose, and skin and are conducted from there to the corresponding center in the brain to the receiver. There these energetic and material signals are transformed into the spiritual phenomena of seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, and touching. One does not know how this transformation of material and energetic impulses into the psychic dimension of perception takes place. It includes the mystery of the connection between the material and the spiritual world.

The transmitter-receiver metaphor makes evident that the picture of the outer world comes into existence inside, in the consciousness of the individual.

This fundamental fact signifies that the screen on which the colorful world is perceived is not in the outer but in the inner space of every human being. There are no colors, no sounds, no taste, no odors in the outer world. Everyone carries within himself his own personal image of the world, an image created by his private receiver. There is no common screen outside. This makes us fully aware of the cosmogenic (worldcreating) power invested in every human.

... Consciousness defies a scientific definition and explanation; for it is what is needed to contemplate what consciousness is. It can only be circumscribed as being the receptive and creative center of the spiritual ego, which has the faculties of perceiving, thinking, and feeling, and which is the seat of memory.

It is of fundamental importance to be aware of how consciousness originates and develops.

The newborn human possesses solely the faculty of perceiving -- possesses, or more correctly, is this mystic nucleus of life. He owns -- to use again the metaphor of television -- a blank video cassette, where the incoming stimuli from the outer world are transformed into images and sensations that can then be stored in the memory, providing the groundwork for thinking. Without these signals from outside, no consciousness could develop.

There is common consent that the evolution of mankind is paralleled by the increase and expansion of consciousness. From the described process of how consciousness originates and develops, it becomes evident that its growth depends on its faculty of perception.

Therefore every means of improving this faculty should be used.

The characteristics of entheogens, their faculty to improve sensory perception, make them inestimable aids in the process of expanding consciousness....

7:21 PM  
Anonymous starroute said...

Question:

Is spirit an emergent property of matter?

Or is matter an emergent property of spirit?

I'm prepared to see it either way.

I'm also prepared to see it both ways at once, in a yin/yang, alpha/omega sort of reciprocity.

But if so, what are the implications?

9:47 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

“Sensorimotor is second to none,”
Quoth the LSD guru Albert Hoffman.
“Concrete is better than abstract,” say you
Who are building a sidewalk or bank vault or two.
“Yin is to yang just as spirit to matter”:
Another perspective of bloggable chatter.
“I am the universe second to none,”
The solipsists droning goes on and goes on.
“Shamans know everything knowable.” Then,
Why don’t you go off and be one of them?
“Arabs are evil; let’s blow them all up”:
You are to truth as poop is to pup.
“Drugs have the answers, if you get the best,”
Joey the pimp says, while stroking her breast.
Beings of light and of darkness observe you,
NSA, FBI spooks do unnerve you,
CIA tricksters will slip in your drink,
Something to fuck you up good they do think,
Only to find it is they who’ve been fooled,
By weirder and wilder elders who’ve ruled
Them from the sanctum sanctorum of old,
Simian miscreants killing for gold.
None of this caca enlightens you, friend,
Merely distracts you, beginning to end,
Wond’ring why “they” do the stuff that “they” do,
Keeping you occupied in this foul stew.
Shuck off the mantle of bullshit and vanity,
Take a deep breath, recover your sanity.
Sip some pure water, offer some thanks,
Go for a walk, and clear out the tanks.
Stand on your head, kneel on the ground,
Prostrating yourself, freedom is found.
Realize humility always trumps hubris,
Wake up son, and buy a clue, sis.
That is not that and this is not this.
Or then again, maybe it is.

10:32 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

If you haven't yet read John Lilly, do. He's the basis of the William Hurt character in Altered States, AND the basis of Day of the Dolphins. But his own writings about his experiences with ketamine and supposed contacts with alien intelligence are well worth checking out. Start with "The Scientist".

12:00 AM  
Anonymous starroute said...

Anonymous 10:32 -

Amusing doggerel, and it never hurts to be reminded not to take ourselves too seriously.

However, even if the content is the ultimate goal, the vehicle matters too -- and our culture is presently a broke-down engine that won't get you anywhere worth going.

I've never thought any of us were hanging 'round the RI watering-hole for the sake of individual enlightenment. I think we're here at this particular moment in time to accomplish what will ultimately turn out to be a sharply-defined cultural objective -- bring a few taboo subjects to light, clean out some of the crap, and perhaps brew up some useful metaphors.

And if that is the purpose, then the kind of free-wheeling mythologizing that goes on here is certainly the appropriate method.

12:59 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Define your terms better, please.

Funny how it’s usually white people who claim to speak for entire groups other than themselves, as in “our culture” (whose culture, exactly?) “won’t get you anywhere worth going...” Who are you to dismiss an entire culture, no less to tell me where I want to go, and whether it is worth going there?

You go on presuming to speak for everyone: “any of us” (us who, the entire blog, the entire culture that you have just dismissed, the entire world?); and “we’re here” (who is this ‘we’ again?)...you surely don’t speak for me, and I am “here” in this blogverse.

“Sharply defined cultural objective”? You MUST be joking.

How are you “clean[ing] out the crap”? Are you arresting child molesters? Banishing satanists? Changing the government? Or have I mistakenly wandered into a cyber group enema?

And no thanks to the metaphors you might “brew up.” I personally don’t want to drink what you individually have to offer. But that is okay.

So, please, feel free to speak for yourself. But don’t presume to speak for anyone else unless they appoint you. That is just basic honesty and good manners.

And stop trying to triangulate between different people. That is an old borderline thing, and also something the ill-uminati do to set people, groups, and nations at war with each other to further their ends. It is unethical and malevolent, and ultimately not even self-serving. But I don’t expect you to “get” that.

Now you can claim to have been “attacked” and your pals can rise to your un-needed defense. Maybe they’ll even appoint you as their spokesperson. Then you can speak for them. Have at it.

1:29 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anon 1:29: you've got some great karma going for you. Clearly you have found harmony with your fellow man. What perception and understanding! And such restraint -- plus you really know how to go after the super evil targets. It's almost spooky how you can tell skin color from your screen, too!

1:53 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Is that supposed to be sarcasm?

If so, it doesn't quite make it.

And she is white. Tell me she's not. Or is that still you?

2:02 AM  
Anonymous Salvia Plath said...

Kids, kids! Surely this, of all threads on this Internet, is not going to descend into a race-baiting brawl? If so, let's all call each other Nazis and be done with it.

Can we get back to the good stuff please?

2:14 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Salvia Plath: You are as witty as your screen name. Thank you, I love it.

Sorry I called her white. I didn't realize it was such an insult.

2:19 AM  
Anonymous mako said...

Anonymous 10:32, I thankyou for the pause that refreshes.

As for the unhappy camper, what colour am I? Kind of amusing actually to have someone think of me as red or white or yellow or black or brown or blue or... (sigh), there are just so many colours to choose from.

Quite frankly I believe I am as invisible as everyone else in spite of emerging, as we do, from betwixt the thighs of birth and getting slapped with the "coat of many colours and expectations" not of MY choosing.

3:05 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yonder sky that has wept tears of compassion upon my people for centuries untold, and which to us appears changeless and eternal, may change. Today is fair. Tomorrow it may be overcast with clouds. My words are like the stars that never change. Whatever Seattle says, the great chief at Washington can rely upon with as much certainty as he can upon the return of the sun or the seasons. The white chief says that Big Chief at Washington sends us greetings of friendship and goodwill. This is kind of him for we know he has little need of our friendship in return. His people are many. They are like the grass that covers vast prairies. My people are few.....

Every part of this soil is sacred in the estimation of my people. Every hillside, every valley, every plain and grove, has been hallowed by some sad or happy event in days long vanished. Even the rocks, which seem to be dumb and dead as the swelter in the sun along the silent shore, thrill with memories of stirring events connected with the lives of my people, and the very dust upon which you now stand responds more lovingly to their footsteps than yours, because it is rich with the blood of our ancestors, and our bare feet are conscious of the sympathetic touch.

Our departed braves, fond mothers, glad, happy hearted maidens, and even the little children who lived here and rejoiced here for a brief season, will love these somber solitudes and at eventide they greet shadowy returning spirits.

And when the last Red Man shall have perished, and the memory of my tribe shall have become a myth among the White Men, these shores will swarm with the invisible dead of my tribe, and when your children’s children think themselves alone in the field, the store, the shop, upon the highway, or in the silence of the pathless woods, they will not be alone.

In all the earth there is no place dedicated to solitude. At night when the streets of your cities and villages are silent and you think them deserted, they will throng with the returning hosts that once filled them and still love this beautiful land. The White Man will never be alone.

Let him be just and deal kindly with my people, for the dead are not altogether powerless.

~Treaty oration [excerpt] by Chief Seattle, Dwamish Suquamish, in 1854 as recounted in the Seattle Sunday Star on October 29, 1887 from the diary of Dr. Henry A. Smith

Karma?

3:21 AM  
Blogger Sounder said...

Starroute, thank you for pointing out distinctions regarding various ways to express science. Science is my first love, however it seems to me that our current meta-narrative supports hard boundary conditions, fixed categories, the other as a threat etc. In general I feel that consciousness will find more dynamic forms of expression when our meta-narrative is reshaped by the requirements of circumstance. Lets do this “lesser work”, of the soul reaching toward the spirit so that the Spirit may find the proper vessel in which to pour new perspectives and new criteria for understanding.

6:36 AM  
Blogger RDR said...

Anon 10:32, I think your verse is a cut or two above the usual "amusing doggerel" out there. And it scans impeccably...shop it as lyrics, or do it yourself, if you have the vocal delivery to pull it off. Find a DJ...

Come on, you know you could roll off another 50 lines...rhythm and rhyme, they call out for expansion. Nice narrative flow as it is, though, straight through to the wrap-up.

8:33 AM  
Anonymous Salvia Plath said...

Anon 10:32's infectious verse is (mostly) dactylic tetrameter, for those interested in such things. As in:

"Shivering, shivering, shivering, shivering"

and

"Note how the minister whispered at Emily"

(Examples from "Poetry: A Pocket Anthology" by R. S. Gwynn)

50 lines ... S/he could go on forever following that formula. Meter is the net in the tennis match of poetry.

9:24 AM  
Anonymous starroute said...

Anonymous 1:29 -

My racial type is "geek," which means I do sometimes step on people's toes without noticing. But in your case, I'm finding it hard even on re-reading your post to figure out how I pinched you.

By "our culture" I meant the steaming pile of consumerist, corporate-driven, propagandized crap we're all forced to live with every day. Black, white, or pink with purple polkadots, we've all had our most sacred myths and cultural icons sucked up by it, patented and copyrighted, and spat out again in the form of prepackaged, just-add-water nutrient capsules.

Do you really have a problem with my saying that?

To continue with the definitions, by "here" I meant "in the comment section of this blog" and by "us" I meant "this particular group of disparate but sharp-witted individuals who have been drawn together by a sense of affinity with the material Jeff posts and have gone on from there to engage in a wide-ranging philosophical free-for-all."

There's no place else on the Net just like this one. And right now is a time for major paradigm shifts -- I'm old enough to have been here before, and I remember what it smells like. So if not here, then where? And if not us, then who? And if we don't get it as right as we possibly can, then who do we have to blame but ourselves?

9:33 AM  
Anonymous jules said...

Starroute

You are probably North American, middle class, and possibly/probably white. Well it would be easy to assume that when you say the following:

"By "our culture" I meant the steaming pile of consumerist, corporate-driven, propagandized crap we're all forced to live with every day. Black, white, or pink with purple polkadots, we've all had our most sacred myths and cultural icons sucked up by it, patented and copyrighted, and spat out again in the form of prepackaged, just-add-water nutrient capsules."

Cos thats the culture that (at this time in history) destroys the most other cultures and assumes it is the same as all the others.

If you said "... the culture that destroys our homes, land (aka Mother to many non western cultures), enslaves us, and every one else." We could assume you were not of the above group, and not white, unless you had more insight than many.

Some people find the assumption that everyone else is on your (our?) level (not just because of the tremendous wealth we possess in relation to the rest of the world,) very offensive.

You must be from the "white western worldview", cos you are more concerned about the commercialisation of culture than tomorrows meal.

Its not your fault, but its your karma to have that security, use it well.

DMT Shamanism and religion and anything else are worthless if they do not benefit your community. If they don't help us leave the world in better shape than we found it, they are worthless.

Everyone's a geatway to other dimensions all the time, we all bring stuff into the world. Its a matter of choosing what you bring.

(Unfortunately it seems these days only the "bad guys" get this.)

Psychedelics have nothing to do with it. If someone decides to be responsible for what they bring into the world, and to have the self discipline to act for the benefit of others, not just themselves, then thats probably a good start.

I am not saying that wars are not massive interdimensional feeding frenzies. But if the general population knew there would be less wars and that can't be good for business.

War happens when everyone opens their gateways to it. Even anti war protestors...

7:47 AM  
Anonymous starroute said...

Jules said:

Some people find the assumption that everyone else is on your (our?) level (not just because of the tremendous wealth we possess in relation to the rest of the world,) very offensive.

You must be from the "white western worldview", cos you are more concerned about the commercialisation of culture than tomorrows meal.


Acknowledged.

But I wouldn't offhand have expected someone who was living outside the dominant Western cultural paradigm -- and constantly worrying about tomorrow's meal -- to simultaneously be surfing the Net and posting at a North America-based blog.

I may be acting denser than usual here, but the posters at RI strike me as people who are on the inside looking out -- not on the outside looking in. They may rail against the abuses of the dominant culture, they may be doing their darnedest to beat their way out of the prevailing Western reality-tunnels, but they are not outsiders by any stretch of the imagination.

If there are any genuine outsiders among us, I would hope they would have the generosity to share the advantages of their distinctive viewpoint -- and the patience not to be offended by casual uses of words like "we" or "our" which take no account of their presence.

12:02 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

i think if you watch tv and look at it from a perspective of "what is this trying to get me to believe?" then youll maybe find that what our societal surroundings seem to be only too willing to block is very simple - it is Love. All of the garbage that is happening around us is trying to distract us from love. Can we let afford that?

10:55 AM  
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3:32 PM  
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10:30 PM  
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9:42 PM  
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