Kick at the darkness
'til it bleeds daylight.
It seems appropriate this morning to continue with a Cockburn theme.
From yesterday's post:
You may by now have read the report that - shades of 9/11 - there were simultaneous exercises in the London subway, at the identical stations, at the exact time of the blasts. You may not have had the chance to read it on Democratic Undergound, because though the original source is an audio clip and transcript from the BBC, it's the polarizing Alex Jones who brought it to our attention. So in the dumper it goes. How lucky for some.
We have more than PrisonPlanet on the story now. Over the weekend, the CBC conducted it's own interview with Peter Power, regarding London's amazing - and eerily familiar - coincidence. Power is Managing Director of Visor Consultants, "which on the morning of July 7 was co-incidentally running a security exercise for a private firm, simulating multiple bomb explosions in the London Underground, at the same stations that were subsequently attacked in real life." (Note: the link is to the program CBC News: Sunday and does not appear permanent. Hopefully one will be forthcoming.)
Researcher Paul Thompson (The Terror Timeline) made the following transcription from the broadcast:
Evan Solomon: We've heard something quite extraordinary - could be a coincidence or not - that your firm, on the very day that the bombs went off in London, were running an exercise simulating three bombs going off, in the very same tube stations that they went off. How did this happen? Coincidence, or were you acting on information that you knew?
Peter Power: I don't think you could say that we had some special insight into the terrorist network, otherwise I would be under arrest myself. The truth of it is -
Solomon: But it is a coincidence.
Power: It's a coincidence, and it's a spooky coincidence. Our scenario was very similar - it wasn't totally identical, but it was based on bombs going off, to the time, the locations, all this sort of stuff. But it wasn't an accident, in the sense that London has a history of bombs, and the reason why our emergency services did so well, and prepared probably better than any other city in the world, sadly they have to be. So it wasn't exactly rocket science or totally out of the pale to come up with that scenario unusual though it be to stop the exercise and go into real time, and it worked very well, although there was a few seconds when the audience didn't realize whether it was real or not.
It's thanks to Paul that I found the CBC link, which he posted early this morning on Democratic Underground. Curiosly, he mentioned it was the third time he'd posted the story, and that the previous two had been deleted without explanation. Moments later, that was deleted as well. I must have posted the story half a dozen times myself on several other DU boards, and on each occasion the story vanished within minutes.
Yesterday I'd thought the gatekeeper's problem was Alex Jones, but clearly it goes deeper than that, as posts linked to the PrisonPlanet article remain. Why? To serve as negative examples of "debunked" conspiratorial thought? It's the mainstream corroboration that was made to disappear. (Though, as of this writing, the story is finally seeming to stick in this thread. Perhaps the problem came down to a cranky moderator finishing a graveyard shift.)
Anything else? Oh yeah - Tony Blair is rejecting calls for an inquiry into the attacks. Granted, it's the Conservatives who are making the calls, but it's something to watch.
By the way, I don't expect I'll be posting this week. Or so says my looming deadline. I'd encourage new readers to dip into the archives, and everyone to visit the links and the Rigorous Intuition Forum.
The village idiot takes the throne
His the wind in which all must sway
All sane people, die now
Be lifted up and carried away
You've got no home in this world of sorrows
posted by Jeff Wells at 9:50 a.m.
86 Comments:
I gotta give props to those folks at the CBC. Nice one!
Not quite sure if - or how - this might fit, but I ran across this article last night while doing some light background on Peter Power.
'Pied Piper' of the Underground
Apparently Mr. Power was a passenger on the tube during the King's Cross fire in '84.
The whole world admires the fact that the USA does not go wobbly in the face of terror.
Witness the drop in oil futures today.
As long as the USA can deal with reality realistically, we will never have to worry about conspiracy theories.
Start working on your taxes.
The (mathematical) possibility of the terrorist attack simulcra and the actual bombings occuring at the SAME 3 stations on the SAME day at the SAME time is absolutely ZERO.*
*provided the 2 supposedly mutual exclusive groups have had no contact.
Plectic, are you saying the mathematical chance is zero as a figurative usage of the term? Or are have you actually worked out the statistical basis of that statement?
If you've got some actual statistical justification, perhaps you should include it here.
Do you suppose that the German citizens in 1933 felt just as confused and frightened on the morning after the Reichstag Fire, as we did after 9/11? They were told that the Communist and Social Democratic workers were the arsonists. Thousands of workers in this movement were arrested within hours of the fire, and all left-wing newspapers were confiscated and banned. Interestingly, too, this act of treason happened within the first month of the Nazi Party's power grab.
Sixty eight years later, we can look back and say, "Oh, well, the Nazi government did that to their people to justify the invasion of Poland. But our government would never do that to us."
Will we have the same attitude 68 years from now?
Anyone care to bet on the odds that in a little while we will hear that sections of the CCTV system in and around the bomb sites were out of order on the morning of the attack. Probably polishing the cameras or something. Also anyone find it odd that out of the blue London gets picked for 2012 and 3 days later baseball and softball are no longer olympic sports? The first sports removed since polo in 1936. That Jacques Rogge must be a tough negotiator.
without embarking on mathematical discussion on absolutes (or absolute nothings)..... coincidences don´t occur in 3´s do they ? i think it´s refered to as a
.......
Synchronicity
"Plectic, are you saying the mathematical chance is zero as a figurative usage of the term? Or are have you actually worked out the statistical basis of that statement?"
nitpicking (nĭt'pĭk'ĭng)
n. Minute, trivial, unnecessary, and unjustified criticism or faultfinding.
The adjective nitpicking has one meaning:
Meaning #1: quibbling over insignificant details
hey. anonymous. thank´s for being humble.
not that it makes much difference though .
it´s better to look at the relation between events rather the events as occurances in themselves. relativity has more practical uses.
neither nitpicking nor statistics....how about....'intuitive proof'? - but if thats too wishy-washy, how about.....
its not about statistical probability (can you say 'vanishingly')....
its about M.O.
not that this is worth anything,(other than to me) - I got banned from godlikeproductions the night before the bombings.
posted a thread from a net cafe, titled it 'got banned? - i did' - which got deleted within 3minutes.
my last 'significant' (if i may be so bold) post was about the US death toll in Iraq - i guessed that if there are truly 70-100 discrete attacks every day (a figure i read at least 2 months ago), then the US must be losing AT LEAST 35-50 troops every single day.
I have been posting at Godlike since before it was Godlike - it started out as a forum on Kento's cyberspaceorbit site 3(?) yrs ago
not as 'rigourous' as here, but it was worth the trawling thru trolls for the gems
Synchronicity is okay, figurative language is okay, questions asked to clarify are okay, paying attention to details is okay.
Just makes things a little easier if we say what we mean and mean what we say, so we know we're on the same page.
while we're using informal reasoning, I'd give above zero odds that bin'dare's hypothesis here is the correct one, or at least partially correct:
i) some 'rogue' elements have deliberately bungled this operation to be intentionally easy to decipher so as to ensnare the other perps
ii) with a sufficient push, now, it may be possible to unravel the bombing conspiracy in short order
a massive and thorough investigation is definitely called for, without delay, as otherwise the perps may weave a thick enough net to entirely dodge accountability..
i also heard last night on the news that the bus cctv camera was not working, 'what a coincidence' i exclaimed to my girlfriend who has been increasingly exasperated by my commentary of the last three or four days.
'things like that do happen you know' she responded, i agreed, it happened when diana got smashed up in the tunnel as well.
so lets be clear, there are extremists operating independently who are inclined towards blowing up western targets to make a point of some sort.
and it doesnt have to have an objective like getting a govt to change a policy, it could just be here is some death and terror out of nowhere, how does it feel?
but the more i learn through rereading history and current affairs through sites like this one the harder it becomes to view any event like this one with anything other than reasonable cynicism.
as always what we really need is facts and leads, because quite clearly all of you wacky conspiracy theorists are more interested in evidence and sensible scenarios than the mainstream 'reality based' community.
ps. jeff, what does your wife think of this one?
smiths
I read once where the JFK assassination was deliberately done in broad daylight, on TV, as a public execution. So that the masses watching (and forced to watch again and again via a coopted media) would be well programmed to know the great might of the cabal that could do such a thing and not be touched.
Oswald says "I'm a patsy!" and is, in turn, executed on TV.
The purpose of it is to make you feel small, and powerless, to make you think you can't do a thing to stop the mighty bad guys.
40 folks offed in London. Not a TACTICAL blow, but an emotional one. And then the presentation of of lame stuff anyone could see through (magic passports, magic bullets, coincidental exercises, etc.) pandered by the coopted media, to let you know the forces arrayed against you are even stronger than you thought.
You'd think anyone remotely possessed of their wits would be capable of saying 'um, can I see the list of companies that sold short on 9/10/01?' And now we have a NEW round of 7/7 short-selling shenanigans, and no "here's your list of companies who did it" report on CNN's.
So, if not "good" guys, who?
http://www.rense.com/general18/im.htm
NEW YORK - Officials at instant-messaging firm Odigo confirmed today that two employees received text messages warning of an attack on the World Trade Center two hours before terrorists crashed planes into the New York landmarks.
ISREALI FIRM? GEEZ, NOT LAOTIAN, SCANDINAVIAN, ICELANDIC? OH, WELL, PURE HAPPENSTANCE.
http://www.rense.com/general65/mahor.htm
"As it may be recalled, five Israelis were observed in Weehawken, New Jersey, celebrating the "collapse" of the World Trade Towers and the deaths of three thousand of our fellow citizens. They were reported to police and eventually picked up by the FBI. The five turned out to be agents of Israeli intelligence - the Mossad. This incident was followed up on by FOXNews reporter Carl Cameron and presented on TV as a four-part series documenting Israeli spy operations targeting America."
TOWERS FALLING...DANCING AND HIGH-FIVING...EXPLOSIVES...WHAT COUNTRY ARE THEY FROM, AGAIN? ISRAEL? COINCIDENCE! I'LL HEAR NONE OF IT!
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=85346
Army Radio quoting unconfirmed reliable sources reported a short time ago that Scotland Yard had intelligence warnings of the attacks a short time before they occurred.
The Israeli Embassy in London was notified in advance, resulting in Finance Minister Binyamin Netanyahu remaining in his hotel room rather than make his way to the hotel adjacent to the site of the first explosion, a Liverpool Street train station, where he was to address an economic summit."
WHAT COUNTRY WERE...OH, LET'S TALK ABOUT SOMETHING ELSE...
The best part: who was Attorney General in New Jersey when this went down? Why, look at that, Israeli citizen Michael Chertoff...who just happens to be in charge of keeping your Homeland secure.
p.s. The Mossad's offical motto, embroidered on their golf shirts: "By Way of Deception Thou Wilt Do War"
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/fiveisraelis.html
The Five Dancing Israelis
Arrested On 9/11
A Mossad surveillance team made quite a public spectacle of themselves on 9-11.
The men set up cameras by the Hudson River and trained them on the twin towers. (1)
Police received several calls from angry New Jersey residents claiming “middle-eastern” men with a white van were videotaping the disaster with shouts of joy and mockery. (2)
"They were like happy, you know … They didn't look shocked to me" said a witness. (3)
[T]hey were seen by New Jersey residents on Sept. 11 making fun of the World Trade Center ruins and going to extreme lengths to photograph themselves in front of the wreckage. (4)
Witnesses saw them jumping for joy in Liberty State Park after the initial impact (5). Later on, other witnesses saw them celebrating on a roof in Weehawken, and still more witnesses later saw them celebrating with high fives in a Jersey City parking lot. (6)
"It looked like they're hooked in with this. It looked like they knew what was going to happen when they were at Liberty State Park." (7)
One anonymous phone call to the authorities actually led them to close down all of New York's bridges and tunnels. The mystery caller told the 9-1-1 dispatcher that a group of Palestinians were mixing a bomb inside of a white van headed for the Holland Tunnel. Here’s the transcript from NBC News:
Dispatcher: Jersey City police.
Caller: Yes, we have a white van, 2 or 3 guys in there, they look like Palestinians and going around a building.
Caller: There's a minivan heading toward the Holland tunnel, I see the guy by Newark Airport mixing some junk and he has those sheikh uniform.
Dispatcher: He has what?
Caller: He's dressed like an Arab. (8)
(*Writer’s note: Why would this mystery caller specifically say that these “Arabs” were Palestinians? How would he know that? Palestinians usually dress in western style clothes, not “sheikh uniforms”)
Based on that phone call, police then issued a “Be-on-the-Lookout” alert for a white mini-van heading for the city’s bridges and tunnels from New Jersey. When a van fitting that exact description was stopped just before crossing into New York, the suspicious “middle-easterners” were apprehended. Imagine the surprise of the police officers when these terror suspects turned out to be Israelis!
According to ABC’s 20/20, when the van belonging to the cheering Israelis was stopped by the police, the driver of the van, Sivan Kurzberg, told the officers:
"We are Israelis. We are not your problem. Your problems are our problems. The Palestinians are your problem." (9)
Why did he feel that Palestinians were a problem for the NYPD?
The police and FBI field agents became very suspicious when they found maps of the city with certain places highlighted, box cutters (the same items that the hijackers supposedly used), $4700 cash stuffed in a sock, and foreign passports. Police also told the Bergen Record that bomb sniffing dogs were brought to the van and that they reacted as if they had smelled explosives. (10)
The FBI seized and developed their photos, one of which shows Sivan Kurzberg flicking a cigarette lighter in front of the smouldering ruins in an apparently celebratory gesture. (11)
The Jerusalem Post later reported that a white van with a bomb was stopped as it approached the George Washington Bridge, but the ethnicity of the suspects was not revealed. Here’s what the Jerusalem Post reported on September 12, 2001:
American security services overnight stopped a car bomb on the George Washington Bridge. The van, packed with explosives, was stopped on an approach ramp to the bridge. Authorities suspect the terrorists intended to blow up the main crossing between New Jersey and New York, Army Radio reported. (12)
TCM Breaking News reported that the van was laden down with tonnes of explosives (13).
What's really intriguing is that ABC's 20/20 (14), the New York Post (15), and the New Jersey Bergen Record (16) all clearly and unambiguously reported that a white van with Israelis was intercepted on a ramp near Route 3, which leads directly to the Lincoln Tunnel.
But the Jerusalem Post, Israeli National News (Arutz Sheva) (17), and Yediot America, (18) all reported, just as clearly and unambiguously, that a white van with Israelis was stopped on a ramp leading to the George Washington Bridge, which is several miles north of the Lincoln Tunnel.
It appears as if there may actually have been two white vans involved, one stopped on each crossing. This would not only explain the conflicting reports as to the actual location of the arrests, but would also explain how so many credible eye-witnesses all saw celebrating "middle-easterners" in a white van in so many different locations. It also explains why the New York Post and Steve Gordon (lawyer for the 5 Israelis) originally described how three Israelis were arrested but later increased the total to five.
Perhaps one van was meant to drop off a bomb while the other was meant to pick up the first set of drivers while re-crossing back into New Jersey? If a van was to be used as a parked time-bomb on the GW Bridge, then certainly the drivers would need to have a "get-away van" to pick them up and escape. And notice how the van (or vans) stayed away from the third major crossing -the Holland Tunnel- which was where the police had originally been directed to by that anti-Palestinian 9-1-1 "mystery caller". A classic misdirection play.
From there, the story gets becomes even more suspicious. The Israelis worked for a Weehawken moving company known as Urban Moving Systems. An American employee of Urban Moving Systems told the The Record of New Jersey that a majority of his co-workers were Israelis and they were joking about the attacks.
The employee, who declined to give his name said: "I was in tears. These guys were joking and that bothered me." These guys were like, "Now America knows what we go through." (19)
A few days after the attacks, Urban Moving System's Israeli owner, Dominick Suter, dropped his business and fled the country for Israel. He was in such a hurry to flee America that some of Urban Moving System's customers were left with their furniture stranded in storage facilities (20).
It was later confirmed that the five detained Israelis were in fact Mossad agents (21). They were held in custody for 71 days before being quietly released. Some of the movers had been kept in solitary confinement for 40 days. (22)
[S]everal of the detainees discussed their experience in America on an Israeli talk show after their return home.
Said one of the men, denying that they were laughing or happy on the morning of Sept. 11, "The fact of the matter is we are coming from a country that experiences terror daily. Our purpose was to document the event." (23)
How did they know there would be an event to document on 9/11?
It doesn’t take Sherlock Holmes to connect the dots of the dancing Israeli Mossad agents - here's the most logical scenario:
1. The Israeli “movers” cheered the 9-11 attacks to celebrate the successful accomplishment of the greatest spy operation ever pulled off in history.
2. One of them, or an accomplice, then calls a 9-1-1 police dispatcher to report Palestinian bomb-makers in a white van headed for the Holland Tunnel.
3. Having thus pre-framed the Palestinians with this phone call, the Israeli bombers then head for the George Washington Bridge instead, where they will drop off their time-bomb van and escape with Urban Moving accomplices.
4. But the police react very wisely and proactively by closing off ALL bridges and tunnels instead of just the Holland Tunnel. This move inadvertently foils the Israelis’ misdirection play and leads to their own capture and 40 day torture.
5. To cover up this story, the U.S. Justice Department rounds up over 1000 Arabs for minor immigration violations and places them in New York area jails. The Israelis therefore become less conspicuous as the government and media can now claim that the Israelis were just immigration violators caught in the same dragnet as many other Arabs.
6. After several months, FBI and Justice Department “higher-ups” are able to gradually push aside the local FBI agents and free the Israelis quietly.
Osama bin Laden was immediately blamed for the 9/11 attacks even though he had no previous record of doing anything on this scale. Immediately after the Flight 11 hit World Trade Center 1
CIA Director George Tenet said "You know, this has bin Laden's fingerprints all over it." (24)
The compliant mainstream media completely ignored the Israeli connection. Immediately following the 9-11 attacks, the media was filled with stories linking the attacks to bin Laden. TV talking-heads, “experts”, and scribblers of every stripe spoon-fed a gullible American public a steady diet of the most outrageous propaganda imaginable.
We were told that the reason bin Laden attacked the USA was because he hates our “freedom” and “democracy”. The Muslims were “medieval” and they wanted to destroy us because they envied our wealth, were still bitter about the Crusades, and were offended by Britney Spears shaking her tits and ass all over the place!
But bin Laden strongly denied any role in the attacks and suggested that Zionists orchestrated the
9-11 attacks. The BBC published bin Laden's statement of denial in which he said:
"I was not involved in the September 11 attacks in the United States nor did I have knowledge of the attacks. There exists a government within a government within the United States. The United States should try to trace the perpetrators of these attacks within itself; to the people who want to make the present century a century of conflict between Islam and Christianity. That secret government must be asked as to who carried out the attacks. ... The American system is totally in control of the Jews, whose first priority is Israel, not the United States." (25)
You never heard that quote on your nightly newscast did you?
[A] number of intelligence officials have raised questions about Osama bin Laden's capabilities. "This guy sits in a cave in Afghanistan and he's running this operation?" one C.I.A. official asked. "It's so huge. He couldn't have done it alone." A senior military officer told me that because of the visas and other documentation needed to infiltrate team members into the United States a major foreign intelligence service might also have been involved. (26)
To date, the only shred of “evidence” to be uncovered against bin Laden was a barely audible fuzzy amateur video that the Pentagon just happened to find "lying around" in Afghanistan. How very convenient, and how very fake. (27)
There is no evidence, be it hard or circumstantial, to link the Al Qaeda "terrorist network" to these acts of terror, but there is a mountain of evidence, both hard and circumstantial, which suggests that Zionists have been very busy framing Arabs for terror plots against America.
This is OT, but I'm going to post this here to a particularly interested audience anyway...
I was trying to find a little bit more about Lt. Col Dr. Philip Michael Zack, now about age 53, a reported CT suspect in the anthrax case, one which the 'official' theories don't seem to notice too much but maybe should (do some searches and you'll see what I mean)...(btw, from FT. Detrick he reportedly went to Dugway but I wasn't able to confirm..I also saw a report he might have left the country (to Isr.? Eng?)
So I stumble upon these two apparently anti-Castro sites...one of which argues for support of Bolton's contention of a West Nile V Iraq-Cuba contention:
http://www.amigospais-guaracabuya.org/oaget014.php
http://www.amigospais-guaracabuya.org/g_daley.php
But here's where it gets REALLY intersting...
But I couldn't find the reference to Zack...
But I found that if one does an 'edit-->find' seach within that page, you'll find it...NOW...using your mouse, click and hold to highlight the 'hidden text' on these two pages (one on the right margin, the other on the left)...and some VERY interesting names and organizations are revealed...it's the veritable gamut of GWOT CT connections...
Be careful going to these sites...you may be tracked...use a proxy (or better yet 2 or 3 tunnelled through each other!)
Why weren't the bombs made to really do havoc? I've ridden those trains at rush hour and know that they are packed. I have great sympathy for the dead and wounded but I also am amazed at the low death and injury rates. The bombs we were told today, were very high grade quality. But where were the ball bearings and screws which are always in these bombs? These were made to cause massive fear at a low cost. Makes me really wonder what they really wanted to accomplish.
don´t tell me... the jews did it ! (laughter) . and they controlled cheney´s parallel command post, and sent the anthrax, stole the election. These events are connected.....but...
Re: The Five Dancing Israelis
I would be careful with this. I'm disturbed how easily us CTers run with things we hear because it fits with what some may *want* to hear.
Think about it. Highly trained and effective professional terrorists or agents of Israeli intelligence somehow pull off 9/11 but risk blowing their cover by dancing around and high-fiving outside after the attacks? Color me skeptical of that.
These people are skilled and trained at deception. If you believe the media may lie to you, you have to question everything that appears in print or online. Unfortunately, that doesn't lead to much certainty, but that's the messy part of stepping through the looking glass.
anonymous at 10:50:
But bin Laden strongly denied any role in the attacks and suggested that Zionists orchestrated the
9-11 attacks. The BBC published bin Laden's statement of denial in which he said:
"I was not involved in the September 11 attacks in the United States nor did I have knowledge of the attacks. There exists a government within a government within the United States. The United States should try to trace the perpetrators of these attacks within itself; to the people who want to make the present century a century of conflict between Islam and Christianity. That secret government must be asked as to who carried out the attacks. ... The American system is totally in control of the Jews, whose first priority is Israel, not the United States." (25)
You never heard that quote on your nightly newscast did you?
[A] number of intelligence officials have raised questions about Osama bin Laden's capabilities. "This guy sits in a cave in Afghanistan and he's running this operation?" one C.I.A. official asked. "It's so huge. He couldn't have done it alone." A senior military officer told me that because of the visas and other documentation needed to infiltrate team members into the United States a major foreign intelligence service might also have been involved. (26)
To date, the only shred of “evidence” to be uncovered against bin Laden was a barely audible fuzzy amateur video that the Pentagon just happened to find "lying around" in Afghanistan. How very convenient, and how very fake. (27)
There is no evidence, be it hard or circumstantial, to link the Al Qaeda "terrorist network" to these acts of terror, but there is a mountain of evidence, both hard and circumstantial, which suggests that Zionists have been very busy framing Arabs for terror plots against America.
am reposting this 'cuz it seems
very few in the states are aware of this; actually heard it on the radio on the morning of 9/11.
Very astute, anon.
...
Ah the thot plickens, now it seems that the Met thinks the attacks in London were in fact carried out by suicide bombers. Something they've strenuously denied for days now. Odd then that the 2 unexploded devices were apparently equipped with timers. Oh well we can all go back to sleep now the bad guys have killed themselves and saved us the bother of an expensive investigation. Case closed well done Inspector, well done Holmes, frightful business really. More sherry Dr Watson?
I always wondered what evidence would they need to find to decide it was a suicide bomber.
I found this quote..
'We also have very strong forensic and other evidence that it is very likely one of the men from West Yorkshire died in the explosion at Aldgate,' east London, said Peter Clarke, head of the police anti-terrorist branch.
Don´t tell me, the atomized remains of a koran, and no... a poorly edited home video.....sigh
"These people are skilled and trained at deception. If you believe the media may lie to you, you have to question everything that appears in print or online. Unfortunately, that doesn't lead to much certainty, but that's the messy part of stepping through the looking glass."
"The Media" is not providing me with ANY information on the Weehawken Five, beyond what was initially issued and then saved by the wary.
So, are we to throw up our hands and say 'can't believe ANYTHING - might was well accept the proffered version of the truth?'
The remarkable 'disappearance' of this story, the deafening silence surrounding it, is proof as much as the black and white 'you're busted' nature of the story taken at face value.
If the story of the Weehawken five were a lie, it would be taken apart and that analysis would be everywhere for you to find. But it's not.
The best refutation I've seen helps make the case: "yeah, okay, they WERE Israeli spies...but we KNEW they were here, they're our buds, they hate bad A-rabs, too!"
The natural followup question of "then what were they doing in Liberty Park, jumping up and down, apparently with foreknowledge (and an explosive-smelling van) videotaping the dropping towers?" goes unanswered.
Refuting the argument by saying 'well, it must have all been made up, then!'...pure cognitive dissonance removing one from the responsibility of using logic to solve the puzzle.
It's exactly like the painful, glaring ABSENCE of comment on WTC-7. The REFUSAL TO TOUCH it means spin won't work anymore.
"Okay, burning jet fuel, spindly structure, got it. Can we move to the 'pulling' of WTC-7 by Silverstein and abetted by Mayor Bloomberg?" Um, no, we can't.
So, I guess I'd be looking for the logical refutation of the footnotes in the Weehawken story. Like, WHY each of them is so obviously fabricated to manipulate me/defame the innocent Israeli's.
I take it you are saying "if true, this would, indeed, be damning. But who knows WHAT to believe anymore?"
The miraculous 'disappearance' of the 9/11 'put options' story is another great example. Now, on 7/7, we have more short-selling preceding the incident. In our dizzy computer age, one would think it would be short, merry work for the protectors of freedom at Homeland Security to cross-reference those two lists of short sellers.
So, despite the near blackout of information on 9/11 short selling (GEE, WAS THAT MENTIONED IN THE X-HUNDRED PAGE 9/11 OFFICIAL REPORT I SAW AT BORDERS?, What crumbs of information do we have, if any, to find out who had the foreknowledge, and thus, at best, stood by as it happened, and, at worst, engineered it and profited from it?
Oh, my...
http://www.rense.com/general66/ressp.htm
SEPTEMBER 6th
2075 put options were made on United Airlines.
http://tbrnews.org/Archives/a048.htm
Between August 26 and September 11, 2001, a group of speculators, identified by the American Securities and Exchange Commission as Israeli citizens, sold "short" a list of 38 stocks that could reasonably be expected to fall in value as a result of the pending attacks."
You misread what I'm saying. I'm suggesting perhaps it's useful to TPTB that you believe Israel was behind this. Don't think they aren't aware of these sites and what is floating around in CT world. They get you ranting about Jews and most of the mainstream will think you're a complete loon and ignore anything else you say. I never said it was "made up." I'm just saying it's not what it looks like. That's what these guys specialize then.
Seriously, you can't go on about how evil and twisted these people are, marvel at their deceit and cunning, and then suggest they would do something as stupid as these men in Weehawken. It doesn't fit.
It's kind of like that part in JFK where Man X talks to Garrison. Could Mossad turn off our military defenses? Could they order stand downs? Could they cover it up after the fact? They may have been part of it, but not the whole. And I'd bet a lot of money those guys dancing weren't from Israel.
I'm not suggesting you don't do anything or throw up your hands, but I am suggesting that you can't trust anybody. Anytime I read one of those "too good to be true" stories (like Powers on BBC Radio 5), I immediately ask myself, who wants me to know this and why. It's important to consider that.
"don´t tell me... the jews did it ! (laughter) . and they controlled cheney´s parallel command post, and sent the anthrax, stole the election. These events are connected.....but..."
Take notes, folks...refute and debunk by belittling and defaming - but don't actually support any of your own theses with logic or reason - simply destabilize the debate with criticism and mockery. It's also called 'blowing smoke' or 'throwing chaff'.
The tactic is used predominantly by the dissonanly cognitive and spooks/trolls.
yeah. that´s why i use my real name when i am posting.... pretty intelligent for a spy.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/printarticle/gam/20011217/UHELDM
U.S. arrests of Israelis a mystery
Most charged with immigration violations either have been deported or will be
By DOUG SAUNDERS
With a report from Associated Press
Monday, December 17, 2001 – Print Edition, Page A7
LOS ANGELES -- U.S. officials have arrested, detained and questioned hundreds of people on vague suspicions of ties to terrorism since Sept. 11, but a few dozen cases are especially mysterious: They are Israelis, young and apparently Jewish, working in the United States on temporary visas and have little obvious connection to Islamic extremism.
The U.S. government has offered no explanation for the detentions, estimated to be as many as 60 in number, and some of them have begun speaking out in protest and asking courts to end their detention. But Washington appears to be treating them as palpable threats: Many remain in jail. Most have been charged with immigration violations, and either have been or will be deported.
Based on what the Israelis say about the questions they have been asked, federal officials appear to believe they are either Muslim extremists hiding behind false Israeli identities or spies working for the Mossad, Israel's intelligence agency.
If the latter is the case, it raises the possibility that Washington is using its antiterrorism campaign as an excuse to round up other groups of people it wants out. "They asked if I was spying on anybody," said Yaniv Hani, 22, who spent four weeks in custody after Sept. 11 and now faces charges from the Immigration and Naturalization Service for working with an improper visa. He said
Federal Bureau of Investigation officials asked him whether he was really Muslim before switching to questions about possible ties to Mossad. Mr. Hani worked for a number of years for Israel's military police.
AH, A MUSLIM EXTREMIST HIDING BEHIND A FAKE ISRAELI IDENTITY...SUCCESSFULLY WORKING UNDERCOVER FOR YEARS IN ISRAEL'S MILITARY POLICE...THE BONUS BEING HIS DEPORTATION BACK TO ISRAEL! AS A KNOWN MUSLIM EXTREMIST HIDING BEHIND A FAKE ISRAELI IDENTITY. CHAFF-BLOWING COOPTED SPINMEISTER REPORTER.
Israel has protested the arrests. Mark Regev, a spokesman for the Israeli embassy in Washington, said the FBI has not contacted Israel about spying allegations, and that "not a single one has been charged with intelligence violations. It has all been visa violations."
Another possibility is that the FBI suspects the Israelis of taking part in a clandestine operation. A majority of those arrested were employees of a Florida company, Quality Sales, that hires vacationing Israeli youth to work at vending carts in U.S. shopping malls.
Thomas Dean, a lawyer for the company, acknowledged that the Israelis had been issued the wrong type of visa, since they were tourists on working vacations rather than permanent workers.
However, he noted that their cases had all been labelled "special interest" by the INS, a new designation indicating that they are suspects in the antiterrorism campaign, not regular immigration violators.
"Clearly that was what the FBI, from the very beginning, was very interested in talking about -- their activity in the Israeli military or any kind of intelligence agency."
(Israel does have a history of spying against the United States, even though the two nations are officially allies. The most famous case is that of Jonathan Pollard, a U.S. military official convicted in 1987 of espionage for stealing top U.S. military secrets on behalf of Israel.)
Also, five of the Israelis came to the FBI's attention after they were seen by New Jersey residents on Sept. 11 making fun of the World Trade Center ruins and going to extreme lengths to photograph themselves in front of the wreckage. The FBI seized and developed their photos, one of which shows Sivan Kurzberg flicking a cigarette lighter in front of the smouldering ruins in an apparently celebratory gesture.
Steven Noah Gordon, a lawyer for the five, told The New York Times that their behaviour may have been offensive, but said the behaviour was not criminal -- "and they were being treated as if it was." The five have since been deported.
SO, THEY OFFENSIVELY CELEBRATED THE DESTRUCTION OF THE TOWERS? WHY?
U.S. officials have offered no explanation for the arrests, even to immigration judges. Last month, when the INS asked that bail be denied to 11 of the Israelis, a judge rejected the request, saying the government had been less than forthcoming with evidence.
"Although the [INS] alleges that these cases are 'special,' it has failed to present any credible evidence of the basis for this finding," Judge Elizabeth Hacker wrote. "The service has failed to submit any evidence of terrorist activity or of a threat to national security."
Copyright © 2001 Globe Interactive, a division of Bell Globemedia Publishing
You know, there are these things called "links" which allow you to point out stories without spamming a comments section with thousands of words of anti-Israel rants.
Anyway, it's beside the point. Everyone has heard about the dancing Israelis, the Israeli (and everyone else's) forewarnings of 9/11, the warning from Scotland Yard to the Israeli embassy (or was it the other way round?) last week.
This could mean all sorts of things, with "Israel is behind everything" being about the least likely. Hell, for all we know it could mean that Israeli intelligence actually spies on terrorists and tries to warn other governments of impending attacks.
the "dancing Israeli" story is probably a big distraction
given the demographics of New York City it was important to get New Yorkers to shun the idea that 9/11 was an inside job (or allowed to happen)
the only plausible motivation for the "dancing Israeli" story is to get all of the wingnuts on the internet to take the story and run with it -- since that sort of blatant public display is not the sort of thing that covert operatives under normal circumstances
yes, Israel had foreknowledge and was probably involved at some level - but the dancing Israelis story is bait for the anti-semites
isn't it interesting that those keeping this story alive are also websites that promote Holocaust Denial?
tbrnews - The Barnes Review (which works with Klansman David Duke and praises Hitler)
rense - praises Holocaust Denier Ernst Zundel (yuck)
whatreallyhappened - also praises Zundel
We don't need supporters of Holocaust Denial to tell us that the Mossad or the CIA are up to no good.
...Yeah, the MOSSAD are angels, flittering about trying to warn everyone...
Busting up mom and pop fruit stands, demanding another 2.2 BILLION of US tax extorsion cash.
sheesh.
anyway, thx again Jeff
RE: London Calling-
I posted this elsewhere:
Also interesting is that the "Islamic" website being quoted on CNN is apparently in Maryland. This site is now offline. Sure wish I knew somebody in the Ecccshelon smoke-filled backroom- surely every "terrorist" website is trackable. It seems Al-Qaeda is down the highway from the NSA, running porn.... anyway, the final traceroute shows to:
Broadwing Communications, LLC
1122 Capital of Texas Highway South
Austin, TX 78746
whatreallyhappened.com/alqmaryland.html
more puzzlements:
The terror threat to London was downgraded a month before the bombings...
Evidence of specific plans to target transport links in major UK cities was known to the Blair government two days before the attack...
The northern city of Sheffield was buzzing with talk of bomb scares on buses two days before London was hit...
Sheffield buses were delayed for an hour or more as they were sent back to the depot to be checked for bombs. This occured early Tuesday evening, less than 48 hours before the London attack.
Strangely enough the local print and television media didn't cover the bomb scare at all, this in a town where a traffic accident is top story for three days running...
Ministers are expected to rush through measures to arrest and detain suspects accused of acts associated with terrorism as an immediate reaction to yesterday's bombings.
Yesterday's attacks on London will also make it more difficult for the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats to oppose the introduction of identity cards.
Former 9-11 New York Mayor Rudolph Giuliani was in London when it was bombed...
FOX and CNN are reporting timers used, the AP is reporting high-grade explosive material, and all media are now parroting the line that these "sophisticated attacks are the mark of al-Qaeda." ??? (lol!)
(First timers and high-tech explosives, now "Gang of Four" personal papers found?
...unusual selling of the British Pound vs. to Dollar a full five hours ahead of the attack, specifically at 2245 hours EST on July 6th.
And a 20 BILLION in Fed cash pulled on the exchange on 7/5...
... and our Condi now says this smells like the Spanish Bombs. I'm wondering if she is refering to police complicity in that affair?
"the "dancing Israeli" story is probably a big distraction. Given the demographics of New York City it was important to get New Yorkers to shun the idea that 9/11 was an inside job (or allowed to happen)."
HUH? IMPORTANT TO WHOM? A DISTRACTION ENGINEERED BY WHOM?
"the only plausible motivation for the "dancing Israeli" story is to get all of the wingnuts on the internet to take the story and run with it -- since that sort of blatant public display is not the sort of thing that covert operatives under normal circumstances..."
A big distraction? No, the 'big distraction, here, is yelling "Holocaust!" to draw attention away from the core argument at hand: (was there Israeli involvement in two major psyops promulagated as 'terrorist' acts?).
So, entertain us - who engineered the big distraction? Who created the fake 'dancing' stories? Please produce one of the fake stories and tell us why you think it was faked.
False-flag ops not the province of the Mossad? What do you think we are, children?
BTW: "Wingnuts", isn't that the spook-ey debunky nom-du-jour I read over and over in Popular Mechanics?
They danced, or they didn't.
I think it's important that whenever we bring up these coincidences and voice our suspicions, and someone responds "well, coincidences DO happen", that we remember that they are correct. Crazy shit and coincidences do happen, and are not, in an of themselves, proof of anything (although, damn, if a lot of these coincidences don't, on their own, strongly point towards something fishy).
So when that response of "you should expect some coincidences during big events", I would encourage people to agree with that and instead stress that we aren't just referring to coincidence X (whether it's the bombing simulations, changes in stories about the number of bombs, israeli warnings that are retracted and ignored, etc), but the much larger, and far less probable, coincidence of have ALL those coincidences all at once. I Even though we may only discuss one coincidence at a time, it's the TOTAL number of coincidences, taken together, that REALLY points towards a cover up. That means whenever we're talking about those 9/11 wargames, or the bombing simulations, or the unprecedented an anomolous nature of those building collapses, or the string of FBI "foul ups" or whatever the given subtopic is, let's get in the habit of framing that coincidence as only one sub-coincidence in a much larger Big Coincidence surrounding the event.
We also have to constantly remind people that most likely the only reason they're even aware of the coincidental topic at hand, is due to some pesky "conspiracy theorists" running around talking about it, because the trackrecord of media coverage of bizarre coincidences surrounding the most important events of our time is amnesiac at best (and that's being mighty generous). For instance, ask the person says they don't find anything particularly unsettling with the hubbub over the Israeli embassy warning (which, on it's own, and omitting the full history of Israeli involement in state-sanctioned terror, which has been ommitted from our official history), ask them if they find the media's virtual silence on the Israeli warnings (as opposed to mentioning it and subsequently "debuking" the warning as incorrect early, confuse reporting) as somewhat coincidental too, because the media's silence on all these issues is part of the much larger Big Coincidence.
Maybe we should get in the habit of asking people to recall any time they've heard these coincidences actually discussed in their media outlet of choice. Do they read the
NY Times? Ask them if they can recall the NY Times talking about the Israeli embassy warnings, or bombing simulation. Are they an NPR or Right wing radio listener? Ask them if they can recall hearing about these "coincidences" on either of those outlets. And in the case of the bombing simulations, don't just show them links to those stories (or more likely stories about those stories), but also remind them that the BBC and CBC interview segments of the bombing simulations the only places where this topic was briefly discussed in the MSM. Is that level of attention in line with what they would expect? We need to be constantly raising this stuff because it's a HUGE and very self-apparent aspect of these Big Coincidences (although self-apparent
only for those that have experience seeing media ommission.)
So yeah, maybe these simple framing devices could work when it comes to breaking down those mental walls. Constantly reminding people, when confronted with the unexplained and unexplored anomalies that seem to inevitably surround these crucial terrorist-related events, that even if they have found a way to dismiss the suspicious piece of evidence, or unexplained changing official story, or blatant unexplored lines of questioning or whatever about the topic at hand, even if they find a way to comfortably do that by declaring it a "coincidence", they have still not "debunked" the much larger, and much less probable coincidence of all the other sub-coincidences that appear to surround these dark events.
We need to actively to raise the debunk bar, because the online "dialogue" I've seen surrounding the London Bombings and 9/11 on places like dKos and other the other fertile grounds out there for open minds (yes, there are a lot of open minds on dKos) has been WAY too compartmentalized and focused on one aspect of the story, and therefore way too easily debunked within the mainstream "coincidences do happen every now and then" worldview. Granted, the State Sanctioned Trolling hasn't helped either, but the Big Coincidence of all the sub-coincidences needs to be emphasized as much as possible. When we do that, I suspect the Big Lies will get exposed faster and more efficiently, which is something we REALLY need. Time is running out.
"it's useful to TPTB that you believe Israel was behind this..."
So you're saying Israeli citizen Chertoff, who freed the admitted Mossad spies, above, who by all means WEREN'T celebrating, because he's setting up his own country, Israel, to be patsies to draw attention away from Bushco's inside-the-US, non-Israeli doing of the job?
To clarify, I'm not suggesting the Israeli's came over here and secretly did the op under the very noses of disapproving and taken-by-surprise Dubyah and company. I'm suggesting that they worked closely with their Zionist neocon buddies on this side of the big ditch.
Too smart to gloat? Real actual humans do these acts. Lame, self-important young men - this was a big moment for them, the op they were a part of succeeded, and they spazzed, and they got caught.
Their 'get the Palestinians in the van' ruse didn't work; the net got cast too wide, they got nabbed.
If the thesis is 'there were no Mossad agents', please support.
If the thesis is 'there were agents, but dancing was a fabricated add on' please support.
p.s. Urban Moving Company owner inexplicably flees to Israel, please explain.
(EXCERPTS FROM BELOW) "But no one has been able to find a good explanation for why they may have been smiling with the towers of the World Trade Center burning in the background. Both the lawyers for the young men and the Israeli Embassy chalk it up to immature conduct." ANYONE SEE ANY OTHER IMMATURE PEOPLE SMILING AND HIGH-FIVING THAT DAY?
"The FBI also questioned Urban Moving's owner. His attorney insists that his client answered all of the FBI's questions. But when FBI agents tried to interview him again a few days later, he was gone." INNOCENTLY, NON-INVOLVEDLY GONE.
"For the FBI, deciphering the truth from the five Israelis proved to be difficult. One of them, Paul Kurzberg, refused to take a lie-detector test for 10 weeks — then failed it, according to his lawyer. Another of his lawyers told us Kurzberg had been reluctant to take the test because he had once worked for Israeli intelligence in another country." INNOCENT LIE DETECTOR TEST REFUSER FAILER INTELLIGENCE GUY
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0622-05.htm
Published on Saturday, June 22, 2002 by ABC News
The White Van
Were Israelis Detained on Sept. 11 Spies?
Millions saw the horrific images of the World Trade Center attacks, and those who saw them won't forget them. But a New Jersey homemaker saw something that morning that prompted an investigation into five young Israelis and their possible connection to Israeli intelligence.
Maria, who asked us not to use her last name, had a view of the World Trade Center from her New Jersey apartment building. She remembers a neighbor calling her shortly after the first plane hit the towers.
She grabbed her binoculars and watched the destruction unfolding in lower Manhattan. But as she watched the disaster, something else caught her eye.
Maria says she saw three young men kneeling on the roof of a white van in the parking lot of her apartment building. "They seemed to be taking a movie," Maria said.
The men were taking video or photos of themselves with the World Trade Center burning in the background, she said. What struck Maria were the expressions on the men's faces. "They were like happy, you know … They didn't look shocked to me. I thought it was very strange," she said.
She found the behavior so suspicious that she wrote down the license plate number of the van and called the police. Before long, the FBI was also on the scene, and a statewide bulletin was issued on the van.
The plate number was traced to a van owned by a company called Urban Moving. Around 4 p.m. on Sept. 11, the van was spotted on a service road off Route 3, near New Jersey's Giants Stadium. A police officer pulled the van over, finding five men, between 22 and 27 years old, in the vehicle. The men were taken out of the van at gunpoint and handcuffed by police.
The arresting officers said they saw a lot that aroused their suspicion about the men. One of the passengers had $4,700 in cash hidden in his sock. Another was carrying two foreign passports. A box cutter was found in the van. But perhaps the biggest surprise for the officers came when the five men identified themselves as Israeli citizens.
‘We Are Not Your Problem’
According to the police report, one of the passengers told the officers they had been on the West Side Highway in Manhattan "during the incident" — referring to the World Trade Center attack. The driver of the van, Sivan Kurzberg, told the officers, "We are Israeli. We are not your problem. Your problems are our problems. The Palestinians are the problem." The other passengers were his brother Paul Kurzberg, Yaron Shmuel, Oded Ellner and Omer Marmari.
When the men were transferred to jail, the case was transferred out of the FBI's Criminal Division, and into the bureau's Foreign Counterintelligence Section, which is responsible for espionage cases, ABCNEWS has learned.
One reason for the shift, sources told ABCNEWS, was that the FBI believed Urban Moving may have been providing cover for an Israeli intelligence operation.
After the five men were arrested, the FBI got a warrant and searched Urban Moving's Weehawken, N.J., offices.
The FBI searched Urban Moving's offices for several hours, removing boxes of documents and a dozen computer hard drives. The FBI also questioned Urban Moving's owner. His attorney insists that his client answered all of the FBI's questions. But when FBI agents tried to interview him again a few days later, he was gone.
Three months later 2020's cameras photographed the inside of Urban Moving, and it looked as if the business had been shut down in a big hurry. Cell phones were lying around; office phones were still connected; and the property of dozens of clients remained in the warehouse.
The owner had also cleared out of his New Jersey home, put it up for sale and returned with his family to Israel.
‘A Scary Situation’
Steven Gordon, the attorney for the five Israeli detainees, acknowledged that his clients' actions on Sept. 11 would easily have aroused suspicions. "You got a group of guys that are taking pictures, on top of a roof, of the World Trade Center. They're speaking in a foreign language. They got two passports on 'em. One's got a wad of cash on him, and they got box cutters. Now that's a scary situation."
But Gordon insisted that his clients were just five young men who had come to America for a vacation, ended up working for a moving company, and were taking pictures of the event.
The five Israelis were held at the Metropolitan Detention Center in Brooklyn, ostensibly for overstaying their tourist visas and working in the United States illegally. Two weeks after their arrest, an immigration judge ordered them to be deported. But sources told ABCNEWS that FBI and CIA officials in Washington put a hold on the case.
The five men were held in detention for more than two months. Some of them were placed in solitary confinement for 40 days, and some of them were given as many as seven lie-detector tests.
'Plenty of Speculation'
Since their arrest, plenty of speculation has swirled about the case, and what the five men were doing that morning. Eventually, The Forward, a respected Jewish newspaper in New York, reported the FBI concluded that two of the men were Israeli intelligence operatives.
Vince Cannistraro, a former chief of operations for counterterrorism with the CIA who is now a consultant for ABCNEWS, said federal authorities' interest in the case was heightened when some of the men's names were found in a search of a national intelligence database.
Israeli Intelligence Connection?
According to Cannistraro, many people in the U.S. intelligence community believed that some of the men arrested were working for Israeli intelligence. Cannistraro said there was speculation as to whether Urban Moving had been "set up or exploited for the purpose of launching an intelligence operation against radical Islamists in the area, particularly in the New Jersey-New York area."
Under this scenario, the alleged spying operation was not aimed against the United States, but at penetrating or monitoring radical fund-raising and support networks in Muslim communities like Paterson, N.J., which was one of the places where several of the hijackers lived in the months prior to Sept. 11.
For the FBI, deciphering the truth from the five Israelis proved to be difficult. One of them, Paul Kurzberg, refused to take a lie-detector test for 10 weeks — then failed it, according to his lawyer. Another of his lawyers told us Kurzberg had been reluctant to take the test because he had once worked for Israeli intelligence in another country.
Sources say the Israelis were targeting these fund-raising networks because they were thought to be channeling money to Hamas and Islamic Jihad, groups that are responsible for most of the suicide bombings in Israel. "[The] Israeli government has been very concerned about the activity of radical Islamic groups in the United States that could be a support apparatus to Hamas and Islamic Jihad," Cannistraro said.
The men denied that they had been working for Israeli intelligence out of the New Jersey moving company, and Ram Horvitz, their Israeli attorney, dismissed the allegations as "stupid and ridiculous."
Mark Regev, the spokesman for the Israeli Embassy in Washington, goes even further, asserting the issue was never even discussed with U.S. officials.
"These five men were not involved in any intelligence operation in the United States, and the American intelligence authorities have never raised this issue with us," Regev said. "The story is simply false."
No ‘Pre-Knowledge’
Despite the denials, sources tell ABCNEWS there is still debate within the FBI over whether or not the young men were spies. Many U.S. government officials still believe that some of them were on a mission for Israeli intelligence. But the FBI told ABCNEWS, "To date, this investigation has not identified anybody who in this country had pre-knowledge of the events of 9/11."
Sources also said that even if the men were spies, there is no evidence to conclude they had advance knowledge of the terrorist attacks on Sept. 11. The investigation, at the end of the day, after all the polygraphs, all of the field work, all the cross-checking, the intelligence work, concluded that they probably did not have advance knowledge of 9/11," Cannistraro noted.
As to what they were doing on the van, they say they read about the attack on the Internet, couldn't see it from their offices and went to the parking lot for a better view. But no one has been able to find a good explanation for why they may have been smiling with the towers of the World Trade Center burning in the background. Both the lawyers for the young men and the Israeli Embassy chalk it up to immature conduct.
According to ABCNEWS sources, Israeli and U.S. government officials worked out a deal — and after 71 days, the five Israelis were taken out of jail, put on a plane, and deported back home.
While the former detainees refused to answer ABCNEWS' questions about their detention and what they were doing on Sept. 11, several of the detainees discussed their experience in America on an Israeli talk show after their return home.
Said one of the men, denying that they were laughing or happy on the morning of Sept. 11, "The fact of the matter is we are coming from a country that experiences terror daily. Our purpose was to document the event."
ABCNEWS' Chris Isham, John Miller, Glenn Silber and Chris Vlasto contributed to this report.
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/july2005/120705stationclosures.htm
(Londoners comment on weirdness prior to bombings - ed)
Hi everyone,
Did anyone travelling in BEFORE the attacks began yesterday notice anything peculiar on their tube journey?
I catch the Piccadilly line at 7.15am each morning from Southgate to reach my work in Kensington by 8.00. Normally, all seats are taken by Finsbury Park and carriages are packed by Kings Cross.
However, yesterday my tube journey was eerily quiet. For the first time ever there were spare seats in my carriage all the way through zone 1. It was noticeable enough for me to wonder what on earth was going on. This was at 7.45 - over an hour before attacks began.
I've also heard people saying that the Northern Line was being shut down at the same time.
Is there something that we're not being told?
Another member responds,
yes!!
I was due to pick a work collegue up from balham at 7:15am, but when i got there i was greeted with Tube emergency vans, police and and hoards of people being turned away from a closed station.
All very strange they must have known something was going to happan, the surely had a tip off. As i drove along the road, (which also follows the tubes) they were all shut and hundreds of people were queing for buses.
when i reached Oval, which was open there were two armed policemen in a road next to the station, which for a quiet area like that is extremly rare.
the northen line was shut from morden to stockwell. They blatently knew something was going down, they just got it wrong and are hoping no one mentions anything
"Hell, for all we know it could mean that Israeli intelligence actually spies on terrorists and tries to warn other governments of impending attacks."
Helpful Israeli's, helping us find bad A-Rabs, got it.
Why, please, would they be celebrating the dropping of the twin towers?
Why, also, would the innocent helpful person who owned their front company flee to Israel after their helpfulness mission was exposed?
"And I'd bet a lot of money those guys dancing weren't from Israel."
LET'S GET KATIE SHMUEL ON THE LINE AND SEE IF SHE'LL TAKE THAT BET...
"Katie Shmuel of the Galilee town of Yokne'am, says that her son Yaron is in "a very critical psychological situation," given that they are not allowed to have visitors and the difficult conditions in which they are being held."
SHE PROBABLY GAVE THE OWNER OF 'URBAN MOVING' A STIFF TALKING TO AFTER HE FLED BACK TO ISRAEL.
arutz Sheva News Service IsraelNationalNews.com
Five young Israelis are "on the verge of collapse," according to family members, as their incarceration in New York on charges relating to the Bin Laden attacks continues. They were arrested on Sept. 11, only hours after the World Trade Center attack, on charges of "plotting to blow up" a New York bridge.
*The Israeli newspaper Ha'retz revealed on Sept 17 that these were the same men who were seen "celebrating" and "making mocking gestures" as the Twin Towers collapsed.
** The Jerusalem Post reported on October 26 that the Israelis were smiling as they photograhed themselves with the collapsed towers in the background.
A lot of these stories get tangled up with the Russian-Israeli Mafiya.
I researched this a couple of years ago, so I'm a little rusty on the details. But in general, what I found was that most of the stories involving Israelis behaving weirdly in the US could be attributed to Mafiya activity more plausibly than to Mossad.
Crooked moving companies bilking little old ladies, whose owners skip back to Israel when they're found out -- Mafiya. Israeli "art students" hanging around DIA -- linked to Mafiya control of the Ecstasy trade.
For those who haven't been keeping up, the Mafiya goes back to the 1980's, when the Soviet Union allowed fairly free emigration of Jews to the US and Israel. Many of those who left were only nominally Jewish, or perhaps not really Jewish at all. Many were criminals, either because Jews had trouble getting legitimate jobs in Russia or because the USSR used the emigration program as an excuse to empty out its jails. Many others took up illegal activities after reaching the US or Israel, as regularly happens with immigrant groups.
Due to residual Holocaust paranoia, Israel is very protective of its own citizens. They have privacy laws covering bank accounts which facilitate money-laundenering, and they are very resistant to extradition requests. This makes Israel highly attractive as a base for criminal activity by anybody who is (or can claim to be) Jewish.
There are arguments as to how much power the Mafiya actually wields, but it does seem that they are very active in the drug business, are active in money laundering through the diamond trade (there were several broad daylight murders of Jewish diamond merchants in New York City and South Africa around the time I was researching this), and have a finger in various other criminal operations.
It's unclear whether they are directly connected with Mossad -- the Likud Party is a more likely partner. (There are various suggestions online that Likud is thoroughly permeated by Mafiya connections, though most of those stories seem to trace back to the LaRouchies and are thus highly suspect.)
(Didn't Likud have its own equivalent of the OSP, operating outside of Mossad as the Neocons here operated outside of the CIA?)
And of course, there was Nick Berg's Iraqi pal -- I forget his name at the moment -- who had been oddly involved in a Mafiya operation involving the manufacture of crack cocaine vials.
I'm not trying to debunk the dancing Israelis story, precisely -- but I do mean to make the point that when it comes to Israel, everything is several orders of magnitude more complex than the way it is being taken here.
"dead men tell no tales"
the most significant link I referenced in the comments was the link to this
If you look at the pages source, there is a veritable list of GWOT personages, but this page was published before the 9-11 attacks. The web is registered to Elías A. Seife. It appears to be an intel operation.
Can people learn to post links and not (old) articles about the israeli spy ring. It´s not that it´s not relevent, it´s just that it is OLD news. Plus it´s only a SMALL part of a big operation. saludos
Anonymous One, lets not forget the DEA was also watching these guys in NJ.It is said that a large number of hits of X were found in both of the apartments of the dancing boys. Who would figure that drugs would show up with these"Dark Actors"? Check out the story on Liberty Think.com, about Ruddy boy. I can't help but wonder who the company was that put up the money for the simulation in the train stations,get ready for the jack boots to come out soon,later.
"Helpful Israeli's, helping us find bad A-Rabs, got it.
"Why, please, would they be celebrating the dropping of the twin towers?"
Have you ever read a newspaper story on an event that you witnessed firsthand? Do you think we can rely on a news report to accurately reflect someone's emotional state? We don't know what or whether anyone was "celebrating."
It is vanishingly unlikely that technicians of the 9/11 attacks were celebrating in public as the towers burned. The notion that the Israelis themselves called in a report of Middle Eastern-looking guys in a white van at the Holland Tunnel, then drove to the George Washington Bridge in a white van, is similarly senseless. The bridge and the tunnel aren't that far apart. Why would you call in a report describing yourself, then drive around in the area of the report? That isn't "misdirection;" that's completely daft.
If the stories were at all accurate, the Israelis were spies and the "moving company" was a cutout. We still have no idea of what they were doing. It could have been murderous or completely benign.
plectic was too kind. The story of the dancing Israelis is no more relevant to the London bombings than any of the other thousands of strange, unexplained circumstances on 9/11. It's considerably less relevant than Gladio, Madrid, or the murky history of "IRA" bombings, none of which had anything to do with Israel.
Fixating on the Israelis when they appear to be a small part of the story does make us look like a bunch of anti-Semitic kooks. Sometimes I wonder if that's the point.
It is the point
Think of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, which are the copycat of the Dialogue aux enfers entre Machiavel et Montesquieu, by Maurice Joly, XIXth century, the latter book alluding to how Napoleon III created a totalitarian state, through control and deception.
Critique of the social and financial elites has a tendency to get linked to antisemitism, making it null and void.
Disinfo at its best :/
"The story of the dancing Israelis is no more relevant to the London bombings than any of the other thousands of strange, unexplained circumstances on 9/11."
So from many quarters of evidence of apparent Israeli foreknowledge of both 9/11 and 7/7...and coverup/denial of same by the mainstream press in both cases...is not relevant to figuring out who did the London crime?
"Fixating on the Israelis when they appear to be a small part of the story does make us look like a bunch of anti-Semitic kooks. Sometimes I wonder if that's the point."
This is about 'who done it', not race, creed or religion.
A small part of the story? They are a 'small part of the story' because of the assiduous shoving of the story down the memory hole by the Ministry of Truth, I mean the mainstream press.
Prior Isreali knowledge of both 'terrorist events', apparent Israeli insider trading before 9/11 using that prior knowledge, intel guys from their secret service caught celebrating the successful op and then quietly slipped out of the country Attorney General Chertoff, who shortly thereafter becomes head of Homeland Security...
Nope, no pattern of Israeli involvement, here.
Of course, we need to investigate 'who engineered the exercises on 9/11, effectively standing down much of the military's forces on that day. Israeli's? No.
As previous, their Zionist neocon buddies, rife throughout our political system, whom I don't have to list here.
"Don't pick on the jews, people will get mad!" isn't doing it for me as a rebuttal to the above.
"Israeli's unconnected to 7/7" Okay, please explain Israeli's apparent prior knowledge of event and the establishment media's quick squashing of that story.
In reference to machine elf, the Holland Tunnel and the George Washington Bridge are actually about 8 miles apart -- one is in lower Manhattan, the other in upper Manhattan. Not at all the same area in New York terms.
Not that I disagree that the Israelis are likely a diversion here. Infiltrating Kurdistan, stirring up a little chaos in Baghdad, inciting the US to war with Iran -- that's their MO. False flag terrorism probably not so much.
"It's considerably less relevant than Gladio, Madrid, or the murky history of "IRA" bombings, none of which had anything to do with Israel."
Ah, the IRA. How, pray tell, to they connect to 7/7? No "Irish Finance Minister received warning, stayed at his hotel" story that I saw.
Here is where you carefully build your case as to who DID do it, and why all of the evidence connecting the Israeli's to both henious events was fabricated, doesn't mean what we think, etc.
Without that, the paragraph at top is merely 'look away, look over HERE!'
"Can people learn to post links and not (old) articles about the israeli spy ring. It´s not that it´s not relevent, it´s just that it is OLD news."
Relevant is good, right, we're on the same page. But OLD news is bad? Please, what does the age of the news have to do with its relevance to figuring out who committed the two large, similar crimes we are discussing?
"Critique of the social and financial elites has a tendency to get linked to antisemitism, making it null and void."
Antisemitism is a real thing, and a very bad thing. Any unreasoning judgement against a whole people simply because of their racial or ethnic or socioreligious world view is a Very Bad Thing.
Sadly, many people who commit crimes who are by happenstance Jewish will cry 'anti-semite!' to stop further investigation of said crimes. When the invetigator is not saying 'burn all Jews!', but rather 'you did something bad'. It is a smoke screen has worked wonderfully for 50 years. Well, it's not working anymore.
It's called 'playing the race card', and it's Bad, and it's Wrong.
We know that simply being a 'social and financial elite' is not a crime, nor is being Jewish a crime.
CRIMES are crimes. And, whoever does the crime needs to do the time. If they HAPPEN to be Jewish, or Inuit, so be it.
It is a fact that 'social and financial elites' do, indeed conspire to make their own already rosy situations rosier, often to the detriment of those below them in the food chain. This behavior can and often does reach criminal levels.
When evidence points to someone's involvement in a crime, we must pursue them, regardless of who they know, what club they belong to, what religion they practice.
So. are all Jews criminals? Farcical. No, some people who commit crimes HAPPEN to be Jewish.
We're talking about Israel here because there was no "Eskimos received advanced warning of 7/7!" story that was later squashed and denied. We're not talking about the Israeli connection to these crimes because a deep hatred of Jews caused us to unreasoningly hallucinate a story saying "Isreal warned!"
Rotshildes and rockafellas tend to get involved in conspiracy type of thing, due to the history of certain jewish families having to do with the whole money business.
In the middle ages, handling money was considered degrading, so it was given as a task for the jews, who were the cursed kind, the slayers of christ.
Now, why do jews at large tend to be considered as cursed, and pushed in that direction moreover? if we get into metaphysics, it is said they are the chosen, and that their real job is to help the spiritual evolution of mankind.
No wonder that all those who, at different times and places, want to keep mankind as cattle, would prevent jews from doing what they were elected for.. (by oppressing, deviling, corrupting them, and make them think they are victims)
If Israel had any role in planning the London bombings, why would they have to scramble to get a last minute warning to Netanyahu, in such a rush they couldn't keep it from leaking into the press?
I mentioned "'IRA' bombings" because of the likelihood that some of these were false flag or at least allowed to happen.
The anomalies in this case are still piling up in real time, yet for the last two days we've been debating dancing Israelis on 9/11. Seeing the evil hand of Israel behind every terror attack isn't the same thing as saying "Jews are bad," but it's still a sign of a bizarre mindset, and incorrect most of the time to boot.
If there was a state actor, it was probably the state it occurred in. Same as it ever was.
"If Israel had any role in planning the London bombings, why would they have to scramble to get a last minute warning to Netanyahu, in such a rush they couldn't keep it from leaking into the press?"
Such a rush they couldn't keep it from leaking? Leaks happen, despite the best efforts of all involved. It is by examining their CONTAINMENT and ERASURE that we can prove their verity as much as through their initial (but fleeting - because they are erased) face-value.
The internet, damn its eyes, has made life much more difficult for the Memory Hole operators, the folks at the Ministry of Truth trying desperately to rewrite history, to change "got advanced warning" to "warned shortly thereafter."
"They're too smart..." This is the same defense as "but they couldn't have been unprofessional enough to 'celebrate'.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/printarticle/gam/20011217/UHELDM
"The FBI seized and developed their photos, one of which shows Sivan Kurzberg flicking a cigarette lighter in front of the smouldering ruins in an apparently celebratory gesture."
Sorry, "they couldn't have been that dumb" isn't going to get these guys off. It took Israeli citizen Chertoff to do that, but I digress...
The warning that came to Netanyahu on 7/7 preceded the blasts. The call was placed to save him.
We can deduce that the party doing the warning was either Israeli or a friend of Israel. We also know, obviously, that said party had foreknowledge/was part of the op.
Thus "innocent Israeli's are super tight with the bad lying civilian killers" is the best we can do for the Israeli's at this point.
So, whom did the call come from?
dearest ananymous
"Relevant is good, right, we're on the same page. But OLD news is bad? Please, what does the age of the news have to do with its relevance to figuring out who committed the two large, similar crimes we are discussing?".
Of course relevancy is subjective, but the truth of the matter is, all these fragments of "official" information interpolated together don´t really add up to much.
Without witnesses / whistleblowers/ material evidence, the case against both the GOP, Israel et al. is pretty circumstatial, to say the least.
Besides, anyone with a genuine interest in what happened on 9-11 would (or should) already familiar with the israeli/ecstacy/zoom copter/art student/intelligence exercise.
I would be more receptive to a cold scientific analysis of these events than another repetition of already-known-by-the-people-in-the-know type stories.
like I already mentioned earlier in this thread..
"it´s better to look at the relation between events rather the events as occurances in themselves. relativity has more practical uses."
something tangible, like a communications intercept implicating high officials, whatever.
Besides, the dancing israelis has all the signs of being a diversionary tactic. i.e they WANTED to be seen.
"Seeing the evil hand of Israel behind every terror attack isn't the same thing as saying "Jews are bad," but it's still a sign of a bizarre mindset, and incorrect most of the time to boot."
This is simply delamatory. Nothing supports it, it's just a statement.
Here's where you show through facts and examples how it's 'incorrect most of the time.'
It will be a breeze, because of their innocence.
"it´s better to look at the relation between events rather the events as occurances in themselves. relativity has more practical uses."
Isreali ODIGO instant messaging company appears to have advance notice of 9/11. Israeli's fingered by SEC as short-sellers/advance-knowers.
Isreali Netanyahu appears to have advance notice of 7/7.
'Israeli' and 'advance notice' are correlating cross-referenced against 'false flag psy ops we're discussing.'
"Without witnesses / whistleblowers/ material evidence, the case against both the GOP, Israel et al. is pretty circumstatial, to say the least."
Sounds EXACTLY like the defense attorney at the Hosanna church trial.
FBI agents, quoted in the paper, not 'witnesses'. Photos siezed and spoken about by said agents - not 'evidence'. Orwellian.
Hosanna defense, coupled with a complete lack of counterargument.
I'm supposed to give "facts and examples" to prove that most of the terror attacks in the world aren't perpetrated by Israeli intelligence?!?
No one can prove anything. A quickly appearing-then-disappearing story about Netanyahu being warned doesn't prove that Israel dun it by a long shot. If it were an Israeli op they wouldn't have needed to warn Netanyahu at the last minute. That it disappeared proves that the press do what they're told and never report anything about intelligence until years after the fact. Is that news to you?
Surprise, that was me.
"Besides, the dancing israelis has all the signs of being a diversionary tactic. i.e they WANTED to be seen."
Were dancing, were Israeli's.
Okay - 'wanted to be seen...'
Why would Israeli's of any stripe (or anyone else, for that matter) WANT to be seen in that very negative light?
No one can prove anything.
NO COUNTERARGUMENT ADVANCED
I'm supposed to give "facts and examples" to prove that most of the terror attacks in the world aren't perpetrated by Israeli intelligence?!?
NO, JUST 9/11 AND 7/7, LIKE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT.
FWIW, I don't see getting from the Holland Tunnel area to the George Washington Bridge area in less than 15-30 minutes at a minimum, depending on the time of day, and what traffic was doing at that time given the WTC attacks.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/infowarsnews/message/454
PROBABILITY OF DRILL AND TERROR ATTACK COINCIDING BY CHANCE
(10yr mean) One chance in 3,715,592,613,265,750,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
Estimate of Grains of sand in the whole world (http://www.miamisci.org/tripod/whysand.html) 7,500,000,000,000,000,000
In context: If I go to a beach, or a desert, or under the sea and pick a single grain of sand.
What chance is there of you going to the same part of the world by chance and picking up the same grain?
You are trillions of times more likely to do this that the London drill coinciding with this attack at that hour.
I wonder why the media aren't reporting the drill??
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Webster Tarpley rogue network analysis
..dancing israeli´s not included
No, they were from the previous op. Pre-warned demonstrated close friends of lying killers will do for this one.
synthetic terror pdf
Maybe Power is a 'good guy'. Coincidence doesn't wash. The '84 BBC article is odd (punching out the driver to stop him from scaring people is see-through fiction, what if the guy had then died in the fire) but it comes across more like Power sabotaged the incident from the inside. And maybe he was 'set up' on July 7. Why would he even give that interview?
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