Interview with Kathleen Sullivan (Part One)

Let the slave grinding at the mill run out into the field....
William Blake, "America: A Prophecy"

This is the first part of my interview with Kathleen Sullivan, a recovering survivor of trauma-induced mind control. (For a background to this subject, consult earlier posts such as America's Condition Greene.) Kathleen is the author of Unshackled: A Survivor's Story of Mind Control, published by Dandelion Books, which can be ordered from BookSurge. She is founder and president of the North American Freedom Foundation (NAFF), a victim and survivor advocacy group. Much more of her story can be read on her website.

Kathleen Sullivan at 16, and today:


The late Jim Keith, in his book Mass Control: Engineering Human Consciousness, wrote of Kathleen: "one cannot help but wonder if what she says is a particularly twisted brand of science fiction. But the ease with which the woman answers questions put to her, and her sense of sincerity is compelling. Finally, one fears that she is telling the truth."

I know the feeling. Maybe you will, too.


A frequent charge of those who doubt survivors' stories is that your recovered memories have been somehow contaminated. What steps have you taken to ensure your memories are authentic? Could you provide an example of a recovered memory that might appear contaminated, but has been validated?

I am very fortunate, in that when I entered – for the first time - a psychiatric unit designed to help clients suffering from severe dissociative disorders (Multiple Personality Disorder, now known as Dissociative Identity Disorder), one of the technicians warned me to avoid reading books written by other survivors. This occurred in the summer of 1990. He stated that he’d watched too many survivors mentally absorb details from such books, thereby muddling their own memories and making them increasingly unsure of whether their remembered experiences had actually occurred. He said that he didn’t want the same thing to happen to me.

I recognized the wisdom in what he was saying and chose to follow his advice. After that, if I absolutely had to look for information in books (usually reference materials) to find verifications about certain parts of memories, I would start by quickly scanning the index, then find the specific pages that appeared to contain the information I was seeking. Then, I would literally cover the other sections of the pages or even bend back any other pages, to avoid seeing what was on them. I was quite fanatical about protecting myself from memory contamination. I knew that if I could not trust the legitimacy of my memories, I would not be able to therapeutically accept my blocked-out experiences, integrate them into my life narrative memory, and accept my fuller self.

For this same reason, I have – whenever possible - avoided discussing my memories with other survivors. I have also avoided reading the recollections, on the Internet, of any survivor who appears to have had a similar history. Even though reading their materials could help verify some of my recollections, the cost of contamination or confusion is simply too great. I have also avoided any movies or videos that could, in any way, relate to what I have been remembering.

Concerning sharing over the Internet: what most people probably do not know is that when survivors post stories and information in Internet support groups, the survivors are required to notify the other survivors receiving the postings that certain materials in the postings may cause problems for the readers. To alert the recipients, the writers often type the word “spoilered” and then leave enough blank lines between that word and the more intense section, so that the reader won’t accidentally view materials that may not be beneficial. This seems to work fairly well. Of course, some survivors choose not to worry about whether or not their memories might become contaminated, and will read everything. That is their choice.

In the earlier part of my recovery, many flashes and pieces of memory emerged that I believed must have come from my imagination, or perhaps from old movies. This belief came from my need to protect myself from emerging awarenesses that were still too upsetting. I mentally put such memories “on the shelf” and did not make a judgment about them one way or the other. Since I began my recovery in 1989, I’ve been amazed at how many of those “shelved” memories have been verified – in any number of practical ways.

I can also give you an example of an opposite problem that I experienced in the mid 1990s. I met an outspoken government mind control survivor, Cathy O'Brien, whose common-law husband advised me to read some materials that Cathy had written about her experiences. I only read one of those articles, in which she had written about a bizarre, very specific sexual act that she had allegedly performed for a certain politician. Although I had independently been remembering that same politician, I still had blank spots in my memory concerning him. Because of this, I inadvertently adopted some of the details of Cathy's story and ended up with a garbled memory about an encounter with the politician that never felt real. Unfortunately the details of her story were so mixed up with an emerging memory of the politician that I still am unable to separate them back out. I call this a “memory scramble." Like scrambling two eggs together, it is nearly impossible, once the amnesic gap is filled with external information, to "unscramble" the pure memory from the gap filler.


You speak of a number of groups in a network of mind control abuse. Some elements of government agencies (CIA, NSA, NASA), and some not (organized crime, an occult/aryan network, the "Octopus"). Could you tell us something about the structure of that network: how you saw the groups relating to one another, and what hierarchy, if any, you observed?

As a human slave, I was not privy to information concerning the network's structure, other than what I was told and what I observed. Anything that the perpetrators told me could have been designed to confuse and misinform me.

Most people know that the CIA, NSA, and other U.S. federal intelligence agencies are not self-contained. Their budgets must be approved by on a regular basis. Some of the agencies, and some of their representatives, also report to Congresspersons, special committees, and even the President on a regular basis. It is not uncommon for a person in one agency to transfer to another agency or committee or department. Some of these agencies and intelligence departments and committees are almost incestuous. As most of you know, President Bush Sr. was a CIA director years before he became vice president, then president. This means that our current president is the son of a former CIA director – a fact that, oddly enough, is rarely mentioned in the media. The media also fails to mention that our current president’s grandfather, Prescott Bush, reportedly had business interactions with Hitler, as did J.F.K.’s father. This is a family connection that may have affected some politicians’ decisions about whether or not to keep the Aryan network’s existence quiet.

One must also consider that, while working shoulder-to-shoulder with Nazi war criminals who were willing to share information gained from their prior human experiments in concentration camps, some of our government employees and contractors may have become close friends with the Nazi immigrants. After all, these men (and women?) were human. They were not monsters. Some of them might have even been quite likeable!

It is my understanding that NASA was, at least in the past, part of the overall network because NASA was initially formed by members of the same groups of Nazi war criminals who were brought to the U.S. by our government from the 1940s, on. This includes, of course, Werner Von Braun. Linda Hunt’s Operation Paperclip [Secret Agenda] can give you more information about this. My personal belief, based on information I have received from several private investigators, is that the CIA and other intelligence agencies have worked hand-in-hand with NASA, and some of its employees and departments, to further mind-control experimentation. Although some of NASA’s programs are certainly legitimate, including space exploration, I believe that NASA is involved in much more than that, and that NASA has been used to hide certain activities within its own organizational borders. I believe this has been a shell game, in that - when the CIA was investigated – certain records and activities were simply moved to a cooperative sister agency, which enabled CIA spokespersons to speak truthfully when they claimed that the MKULTRA type experiments had been discontinued! As one spook, who confirmed my theory, would often say: same old same old.

It is also fairly common knowledge, although the CIA will continue to vociferously deny it, that the CIA has been involved in drug smuggling activities for decades, including via their Air America operations during the Vietnam War, to bring in additional money for their black budget type activities. I was a witness to massive street drug manufacturing and distributions, and was occasionally forced to smuggle illegal drugs and deliver verbal messages to participants in these illegal activities. Does this mean that the CIA, across the board, is guilty of involvement in drug smuggling and more? Of course not. Again, there are probably individuals, and groups of individuals, within the Company and other agencies who are involved in such activities, while fellow employees are completely unaware that such illegal activities continue.

How does organized crime fit in to the network? Alex Constantine has written a number of informative books that connect the dots between such organizations. My basic understanding is that individuals and small groups from certain government agencies regularly cooperate with, and do business with, organized crime families and networks. This is purely business. It’s about money, period. Huge amounts of money.

Some government employees – especially spooks and spook wannabes - are sociopaths with criminal agendas. Such employees will use whatever is at their disposal to get whatever they want in life. It’s really as simple as that. Life gets even easier for these criminals when they are able to use their agencies’ resources to entrap, and then either blackmail or coerce certain politicians, including those on Congressional oversight committees, to vote and act in their favor. I was forced to participate in some blackmail activities with D.C. level politicians. I know who they are. And from what I know about them, some of them are very unhappy about being unable to do what is honorable and right. They have to go along with the perpetrators, because if the truth were told about what they had done in the past, their careers and reputations would be permanently destroyed. I feel sorry for them, and consider them to also be victims.

Now for the Aryan network. I’m fairly convinced that it has strong connections with several U.S. intelligence agencies for the following reasons: 1) many Aryan cell (local) groups were formed by Nazi immigrants who were secretly smuggled into the US by the OSS/CIA, U.S. Army, and so on; 2) personal and business relationships developed between some of the immigrants and a number of US government employees and contractors, some of whom continue to wield considerable political power; 3) our government’s credibility would be severely damaged if the world were to be presented with sufficient proof that government employees not only allowed but assisted Nazi war criminals in torturing, raping, terrorizing, and even medically murdering American and Canadian children as part of secretive CIA experiments; 4) I know for a fact that some of our most influential movers and shakers are covert Aryans; 5) every one of the Aryan cell groups that I spent time with in the past had actively participated in underground/black-marketing activities, including Commercial Sexual Exploitation of Children (CSEC), child trafficking, adult slave trafficking, drug and illegal weapons trafficking, and more; 7) every one of the Aryan cell groups that I spent time with also was actively involved in breeding babies to be used for human experimentation and slavery, and was also actively involved in using MKULTRA and other CIA mind control techniques to shatter the psyches of the child victims. (I believe this was done to prepare such children to be used by our government, in the future, to perform secretive, illegal activities that could not be traced back to the CIA, NSA, etc.)

The criminal occult ritual abuse connection is no coincidence; neither are ongoing attempts to cover-up its existence. Again, such crimes against children and adults are usually, although not always, committed by groups that operate in secret, in environments that keep "outsiders" from discovering their criminal activities.

Criminal occult ritual abuse is an extreme form of trauma. It is very effective when used to shatter a young victim’s psyche and create Dissociative Identity Disorder in that child’s mind. I know of no quicker, or more effective, way to severely dissociate a child victim. Unfortunately, most of the Nazi immigrants I met as a child were fervent devotees of a religion that Hitler also seemed to strongly adhere to. This religion, which I consider Luciferian, involved the literal worship of the sun and the accompanying belief that one could literally be reenergized by the sun’s rays and thereby become a god.

Unfortunately, their religious practices included those from ancient Egypt, freemasonry, the Kabala, and sometimes practices promoted by Great Britain’s Aleister Crowley. Those practices are especially bestial and dangerous – especially for children. Some of the Nazis believed that they could also be reenergized by ingesting the blood of tortured and/or dying babies, and by sexual interactions with children, animals, and more. I don’t need to go into details about how such “religious” activities could severely traumatize child survivors, thereby making them excellent candidates for mind control experiments!

I would like to bring attention to one more connection: in the 1990s, a new non-profit organization, the False Memory Syndrome Foundation, was instrumental in discrediting the recovered memories of survivors of sexual and criminal occult ritual abuse. I do not believe it is a coincidence that the FMSF was initially created by Dr. Martin Orne, Pamela and Peter Freyd, and several other individuals who either had been directly involved in the CIA’s MKULTRA subprogram or were directly related to individuals who had been. (You can find information about some of the connections between members of the FMSF and MKULTRA research on my web page [here].) Ironically, quite a few MKULTRA survivors have independently remembered, and identified, some of these same individuals as perpetrators who had harmed us when we were MKULTRA child subjects.


I’m interested in your assessment of disinformation regarding the subject of mind control. How widespread have you found it, and what are some of its distinguishing characteristics? How can those of us outside the survivor community guard against it?

I have found such disinformation to be fairly widespread in literature and Internet articles about mind control. This is, in part, because gullible writers will cite disinformation agents.

Before I go further, I must mention that nearly all of the disinfo agents have been independently identified by at least several recovering mind-control survivors as actual mind-control perpetrators who did harm to those survivors in the past – either as mental programmers, or as handlers. One of the identified perpetrators has acknowledged having been a CIA employee in the past, and has also admitted to still being connected to the CIA.

Some of the common signs I’ve found in materials written by disinfo agents are:

1. The agents usually lure one or two outspoken, fairly credible mind-control survivors by wooing them and/or promising to protect the survivors. Some of the agents have actually influenced the survivors to allow the agents into their homes, sex lives, and bank accounts. These agents have then gained illegitimate credibility by encouraging their new protégés to co-write with the agents and appear with the agents at conferences on mind control.

2. The agents promote disinfo-laden conspiracy theories through themselves and their protégés. For instance, a current joint conspiracy among recognized disinfo agents is to frighten people into believing that: the high-level perpetrators (world-ranking politicians, etc.) are really shape-shifting aliens in human bodies who have already, in secret, created a New World Order that is in the process of changing all of us into mentally controlled slaves. (It is not difficult for identified disinfo agents, who are masters in mental manipulation and hypnosis, to “convince” the highly suggestible protégés that they saw high-ranking politicians morph into lizard aliens and back again.) By buying into this disinfo, we are likely to either become irrational, or to melt into puddles of helplessness and fear. I believe that as long as they focus our attention onto subjects like this that are likely to push our panic buttons, they will render us nearly, if not totally ineffective in learning the truth and using it effectively.

3. By feeding other bits and pieces of false information to the protégé survivors, they use the survivors to promote even more disinformation. Hearing such disinfo from both the agents and their protégés causes us to be more likely to believe that the disinfo must therefore be legitimate. My biggest concern about this, is that the protégés are not only adding an undeserved sheen of credibility to the disinfo agents and their lies, but the protégés are also being used to influence the public to believe that ALL mind-control survivors must believe the same lies. Beyond that, any individual who is educated or smart enough to recognize the disinfo as such, may therefore not trust information provided by those of us who are presenting legitimate information.

4. Another interesting factor is that most of the more outspoken disinfo agents present together at conferences that either pander to “conspiracy theorists” and/or to the sector that is pro-Aryan and/or “Patriot.” Not all people in the Patriot movement are pro-Aryan. However, I have learned that most of the mind-control disinfo agents are, privately if not publicly, avowed racists. This would seem to be a rather odd connection, if one did not know that many Aryan organizations and cell groups use “trauma-based mind control” on their members, to ensure their submission and compliance.

5. Some of the disinfo agents have indicated, publicly, that they are “against” other disinfo agents while still working with them behind the scenes.

6. Some disinfo agents will claim that they were harmed or worse, by “bad guys,” to shut them up, but cannot provide any real proofs of such occurrences.

7. When disinfo agents are being outed by legitimate survivors and concerned investigators and journalists, the agents will usually accuse the survivors of being “disturbed” or misled, and/or will accuse both the survivors and other concerned parties of working for the CIA, NWO, etc. to silence them.

8. Most disinfo agents have a strange aura of “charisma” and can easily suck people in, mentally and emotionally. Further, they can influence gullible individuals to believe their information without providing sufficient proofs that the information is legitimate. This is perhaps the most important sign that one should look for, internally, when in the presence of a disinfo agent. If one feels a need to relax for just a little while and check his/her brains at the door, one is probably already coming under the influence of the agent’s hypnotic skills.

9. Not all disinfo agents are public speakers. Some keep a lower profile. The more outspoken agents will, on occasion, quote the less-outspoken agents’ lies to add further credibility to their own materials and presentations.

Have you had any contact, either as an alter or as a survivor, with perpetrators or victims of the "Franklin Cover-Up"?

I need to mention several things, before I answer this set of questions. First, I still have a lot of memory gaps and may never remember everywhere I’ve been, and everyone I’ve met. Second, a lot of the people who I met used aliases. Third, there are people mentioned in the book who it is not in my best interest to name; therefore, I will share information without giving their names. Fourth, there are some persons mentioned in the book who I will never name as individuals from my past. Unfortunately, after they die, they are often sainted. It’s a no-win situation for me to name them, alive or dead. Fifth, I did not live in Nebraska. I lived in Pennsylvania, then Maryland, then metro Atlanta, Georgia, with a 3-year stint in Chicago. Therefore, I probably never had a reason to meet the Nebraska locals. Finally, I need to mention that I will not go into further details beyond what I share below. Now for my answers:

1. One of my black op handlers was a PsyOps expert/lawsuit-happy “Satanist”/flaming pedophile mentioned in the book. That person later participated in revictimizing and terrorizing me during a group assault in 1997, after I had gone public during an interview as part of the CKLN radio series on mind control.

2. Although I have no memory of ever going to Boys Town, my maternal grandfather, who claimed to be OSS/CIA and was instrumental in involving me as a child in MKULTRA and beyond, took his annual “vacations” at Boys Town and often sent donations to them. I always thought it was strange that he went there for vacation; and I especially thought it strange that he sent them money, given that he was a very stingy and selfish man. Knowing what I know now, it makes sense - he was a pedophile.

3. A certain former, very high-ranking politician who also was connected in the past to the CIA was one of my primary “owners.” I performed a number of illegal activities for him, including assassinations. I also unfortunately couriered children, by air, to D.C. so that he could have at them. The children were instructed to call me “Aunt.” That politician was also a flaming pedophile and probably still is. It is definitely not in my best interest to publicly name him during this current political climate. Although he now keeps a lower profile, I still consider him to be an extremely dangerous.

4. I met and had some dealings with two former CIA Directors mentioned in the book. One Director was total pond scum. An especially secretive pedophile, he personally “gave” me as a “butterfly” for #3’s “collection” when I was an older teenager (this was probably an allusion to the code name for their mind-control slavery operation, “Project Monarch”) The other Director was refreshingly honest and I sincerely admired him. Although he knew what was going on, but never seemed happy about it. Unfortunately, he was later terminated.

5. The CIA goes without saying. Read my book for more information.

6. I was introduced to another very high-ranking politician who was mentioned in the book, albeit not as a perpetrator. The person who presented my free services to that man, who had just entered office, was a very corrupt, former high-ranking politician. The potential recipient had the moral rectitude to reject my services as a free assassin, but appeared to be compromised later by another sent-in slave whose training was more to his tastes.

7. My father, who was my primary mental programmer and tormentor, was big into the teachings and practices of Aleister Crowley. Dad incorporated them into his extremely gory, murderous occult rituals – particularly in the 60’s.

8. The George Town Club sounds VERY familiar – I was used at least one time in a similar building in the D.C. area that was used for the purposes mentioned in the book, to compromise and blackmail D.C. politicians. (Although my primary training was in black ops, I also had alter-states that were trained and used – from childhood on - to “sexually service” both males and females.)

9. I was exposed to a “NSC staff member” mentioned in the book. I knew him as a dangerous, totally sociopathic covert operative who definitely had no concern for human life and enjoyed raping female slaves in brutal ways. For that reason, I am amused by his altered public persona as a moral right-wing hero and political commentator.


You mention you heard George HW Bush referred to as the "webmeister." Can you tell me what you think that might mean? Did you hear his name in other contexts?

First of all, one of CIA insiders’ code-names for the Agency was “The Web.” Other Directors may have also been dubbed “webmeister,” but I only remember Bush Sr. being called it by CIA employees who were in the loop. There seemed to be several reasons why he was given the name:

1. The inclusion of the word “meister” (as opposed to “master”) alluded to his father’s business connections to Hitler, and the Director’s own alleged Aryan leanings.

2. I was told that Bush Sr. was unusually adept at using the Agency’s resources – the “threads” and “links” of the web – to further his personal goals. This included his making connections with many influential people, and utilizing information, that he would not have otherwise had access to. (My suspicion is that he has continued to hone this particular skill since he left the CIA.) He seemed to be especially respected for this skill because he did it quietly and without fanfare, which continues to be one of his trademarks.

3. They also called him the “webmeister” because he was the head of the “Web.”

4. Individuals who were skilled in hypnotic mind control and mental programming were given the honorary title of “master.” For this reason, he was considered a “master” on more than one level.


A point of resistance to accepting the validity of survivors' stories is that the crimes are simply too horrific to comprehend. Many will say, "Why would the government do such things to children?" How would you respond to that?

Having been tortured and much more for decades by numerous sadistic individuals who have worked for and/or have been contracted by certain U.S. government agencies, I have had to work very hard not paint our entire federal government with a broad black brush. In reality, certain individuals, and groups of individuals, had specific personal agendas that other employees were unaware of. I have remembered that some of the people who participated in what was done to me and other children as part of MKULTRA experiments exhibited facial and body expressions that indicated that they were very uncomfortable about what was being done to us.

A factor that must be considered, is that most of the more secretive, more highly illegal experiments were perpetrated in secretive locations and environments that "outsiders" would not have been aware of. I believe that in any group, there may be individuals who have more of a penchant for harming fellow humans. If you were to put a group in a closed, inaccessible environment and then remove commonly accepted rules of morality and legal constraints, I believe that some of the individuals in the group not only will willingly harm innocents targeted by the group, but will also encourage other members of the group to relax their own morals standards and do likewise. This problem would be much greater, of course, if the group has explicit permission from government officials to break the law.

If you will think about what happened at Abu Ghraib - the secrecy; the implicit (if not explicit) permission to ignore legal constraints; participants and persons in charge who enjoyed harming others; and more - you can see how this can happen. The outside world will understandably be horrified by the survivors’ stories. This is because, by and large, we are generally unaware of such atrocities and are therefore not desensitized enough to accept such survivors’ stories at face value. It’s a part of life that is extremely ugly and unpleasant. Of course we do not want to believe that fellow humans are capable of, and willing to do, such horrific things to other humans!

Let’s go one step further. Why would perpetrators do to children, what was done to us? I think that the reasons would vary from one perpetrator to the next.

Perhaps the most common reason is that at least some of the perpetrators were unconsciously reenacting abuse that they had endured in their own childhoods. An abused child usually has no power. That child may decide, either consciously or unconsciously, that some day when he/she is big enough, he/she will be the one in charge. It’s easy for such a person to take the next step as he or she becomes larger, and pour out his/her childhood rage on the next generation of vulnerable children.

Some of the adults who were involved in the experiments, and who did not seem upset by what was done to us, may not have been victimized as children. Instead, they may have stayed in a scientific, cerebral mode. Some seemed so “into” logic and abstract thought that they may not have been capable of empathizing with other humans. My father was an electrical, chemical and mechanical engineer. I noticed that he, and some of his fellow engineers that he worked with at Western Electric, seemed to have that same emotional disconnection.

In an odd way, I consider myself fortunate that I was repeatedly exposed, as a child, to researchers who were absolutely brilliant. Although I suffered from their inability to recognize, and feel, the effects of what they did to me, their genius and creativity powerfully challenged my mind and helped it develop much more than it otherwise may have. This continues to be to my benefit, although I also choose to work hard on developing empathy towards others.

I'll have more from Kathleen in a later post.